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The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

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Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#61

Post by zeven7 »

tptacek wrote: post #33
jnwatson wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the author's points was that if United took no profit, it could only very slightly increase services. The only ethical thing that Thompson could have done is advocated for the dissolution of his and his competitors' firms, which would have had him out of a job quickly. The actual problem is the system where United exists at all. Health insurance provides exceedingly little value for a very high cost. One issue…

No, you've misapprehended the critique; in fact, your comment here isn't even coherent. If you eliminate United altogether, you get a grocery store circular discount on health care; in other words: health care is still altogether too expensive. So the "actual problem" can't be the system supporting health insurance; the problem has to be elsewhere. It's not hard to see where it is! Go look up the 2022 NHE, which incl…

This comment is a riddle. Say it plainly.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#62

Post by mandmandam »

tptacek wrote: post #58
mandmandam wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His actions touched a nerve. If you want to try and smear the alleged manifesto, go ahead, but I don't think you'll be changing many minds. And by the way, there's no shortage of "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" who broadly agree with its points. Luigi is more popular than Joe Biden lol [0]. 60% of New Yorkers would acquit him [1] (100,000 sample size). 0 - https://www.msn.com/en-…

No, you just tried to imply that the "real" manifesto was somehow difficult to dismiss. That's the one I was referring to. It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. "The poll, conducted by PoliticsVideoChannel". Heh.

> It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does.

That's a failure of both logic and reading comprehension on your part, I'm afraid.

It's honestly odd that you'd think this to be true. It reads as if you're a little too keen to find a 'gotcha'.

The alleged manifesto outlines that while there are more knowledgeable experts on the corruption and greed at play, who have been opining for decades, no one has taken action and the problems have remained. To reinterpret this as it "dismissing itself" is far from justified.

> I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong.

I never said it was strong, or implied such. I said it wasn't as easy to dismiss as the proven fake manifesto, and I said that many people broadly agree with its points.

As an academic essay, or as a finished draft to try and justify murder, it has serious flaws. However, I think that if it were as easily dismissed as you insist, then at least one of the mainstream news organizations would have published it.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#63

Post by tptacek »

zeven7 wrote: post #61
tptacek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you've misapprehended the critique; in fact, your comment here isn't even coherent. If you eliminate United altogether, you get a grocery store circular discount on health care; in other words: health care is still altogether too expensive. So the "actual problem" can't be the system supporting health insurance; the problem has to be elsewhere. It's not hard to see where it is! Go look up the 2022 NHE, which incl…

This comment is a riddle. Say it plainly.

"Insurers are clearly not the problem with our health care system, as you can plainly see from the NHE."

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#64

Post by tptacek »

mandmandam wrote: post #62
tptacek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you just tried to imply that the "real" manifesto was somehow difficult to dismiss. That's the one I was referring to. It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. "The poll, conducted by PoliticsVideoChannel". Heh.

> It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. That's a failure of both logic and reading comprehension on your part, I'm afraid. It's honestly odd that you'd think this to be true. It reads as if you're a little too keen to find a 'gotcha'. The alleged manifesto outlines that while there are more knowledgeable exp…

The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable; the causes of the gap between US life expectancy and the rest of the G8 (spoiler: cars, guns, heart disease) are well studied. In fact, when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform.

That is his central claim. He murdered someone over it. It's luridly false.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#65

Post by numpad0 »

I don't know the US deem assassination justified, or we're seeing the end of the world, but the descriptions of this guy reads like that of garden variety arrogant kiddo: one that label anything he hasn't seen as either aboriginal primitive isms or obvious display of neural deficiencies.

No, Luigi, that police officer wasn't being overly complicit, he's annoyed that you're not gathering bystanders around the man and calling 911(119) yourself, doubly so because you're not getting it.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#66

Post by benreesman »

tptacek wrote: post #56
benreesman wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not finely parse the polling (or any commenter’s history of poll citing): how about a fucking unprecedented number of people are vigorously endorsing an assassination? How about a fucking huge number that’s a big deal?

You mean like the poll that showed an unprecedented number of people supporting Hitler?

I think we can keep a lot of discussion without Godwin’s law or whatever: we really stuck on “Hitler”?

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#67

Post by tptacek »

benreesman wrote: post #66
tptacek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like the poll that showed an unprecedented number of people supporting Hitler?

I think we can keep a lot of discussion without Godwin’s law or whatever: we really stuck on “Hitler”?

I'm not doing a "Godwin's law". I literally have on my screen a poll, which generated a whole news cycle, in which more people supported Hitler, in the United States, than are claimed to be supporting the CEO murderer here.

My point --- I think obviously --- is that 15% support in an opinion poll is a meaningless metric. Tens of millions of Americans do not in fact support Hitler. There's a whole literature on why these kinds of crazy results pop out of opinion polls (read up for instance on acquiescence bias).

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#68

Post by mandmandam »

tptacek wrote: post #64
mandmandam wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. That's a failure of both logic and reading comprehension on your part, I'm afraid. It's honestly odd that you'd think this to be true. It reads as if you're a little too keen to find a 'gotcha'. The alleged manifesto outlines that while there are more knowledgeable exp…

The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable; the causes of the gap between US life expectancy and the rest of the G8 (spoiler: cars, guns, heart disease) are well studied. In fact, when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. That is his central claim. He murdered someone over it. It's luridly false.

> The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable

No, it isn't. If you want to claim that all of those numbers are explained by heart attacks and guns, then you need to ask yourself how many of the gun deaths are due to poor mental health resources, and how many of the heart attacks could have been prevented with more equitable and affordable healthcare.

And if you still believe it's so "trivially falsifiable", then why do you think most Americans (and the rest of the world, for that matter) believe otherwise? US healthcare is undeniably a global laughing stock. We are the poster child for why capitalism in healthcare is an evil and stupid idea.

Our system works well for people with either a looooot of money, or premium insurance through their employment.

It doesn't work so well for the hundreds of thousands forced into medical bankruptcy each year, or the diabetics dying because they can't afford insulin, or the 27% of Americans who skipped medical care because they couldn't afford it last year [0]. 27%! That's utterly indefensible. No society can long withstand such stress.

It doesn't work so well for non-white infants dying in childbirth at shocking rates, or the families left destitute due to over-costed end of life care. Try telling the people who had their lives financially ruined because someone called a $4,000 ambulance for them that we outperform in healthcare.

Etc, etc.

> when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform.

On a dollar per dollar basis? Nope. To all citizens with any approximation of equality? Nope. If you have a high 7 figure net worth? Sure; glad you're alright Jack - but don't expect America to believe you when you say the system works.

0 - https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-t...

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#69

Post by tptacek »

mandmandam wrote: post #68
tptacek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable; the causes of the gap between US life expectancy and the rest of the G8 (spoiler: cars, guns, heart disease) are well studied. In fact, when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. That is his central claim. He murdered someone over it. It's luridly false.

> The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable No, it isn't. If you want to claim that all of those numbers are explained by heart attacks and guns, then you need to ask yourself how many of the gun deaths are due to poor mental health resources, and how many of the heart attacks could have been prevented with more equitable and affordab…

I think we have more gun deaths because we have vastly more guns than other countries, and more car deaths because we drive a lot more. I think researchers broadly agree with me. But you do you; this doesn't seem like an especially promising discussion.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#70

Post by mandmandam »

tptacek wrote: post #69
mandmandam wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable No, it isn't. If you want to claim that all of those numbers are explained by heart attacks and guns, then you need to ask yourself how many of the gun deaths are due to poor mental health resources, and how many of the heart attacks could have been prevented with more equitable and affordab…

I think we have more gun deaths because we have vastly more guns than other countries, and more car deaths because we drive a lot more. I think researchers broadly agree with me. But you do you; this doesn't seem like an especially promising discussion.

> we have vastly more guns than other countries,

Yeah, most of the world sees that as a mental health issue. "Gun nuts" is the term most often used.

And, over half of all gun deaths are suicides, so I stand by my statement that better mental health services would greatly reduce the number of gun deaths.

> and more car deaths because we drive a lot more.

I didn't say anything about car deaths. That was you, and I didn't take issue with it. That said, the fact that road safety has fallen so far over the past couple decades doesn't speak well to our collective mental health.

> I think researchers broadly agree with me.

This is at least your fourth distinctly misleading appeal to authority in our short chat.

> you do you; this doesn't seem like an especially promising discussion.

I'm afraid not. I tried though.

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