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A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

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Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ice hybrids can run on the Atkinson cycle, which fas been explained to me as diesel range from gasoline. I believe this is because the electric motor can handle the torque variation so the engine runs in a more consistent optimized torque band

The most optimal thing is to just use ICE engines as a generator/range extender that tops up the battery. Most hydrogen vehicles actually work like that as well: the fuel cell is basically used as a generator to top up the battery. Some of the Chinese plugin hybrids are starting to do this. Those basically are EVs with a generator bolted on to extend the range to something crazy like well over 1000 miles. These vehic…

> The most optimal thing is to just use ICE engines as a generator/range extender that tops up the battery.

Not necessarily. A pure Series hybrid, at least so far, haven't been able to match up to the series-parallel setup Toyota and Ford is using. And part of the reason for that, is they typically have a 'direct drive' mode, such that the engine is directly connected to the wheels; at that point you can have far less energy lossage via the mechanical drivetrain compared to the loss of mechanical->electrical, even if that electrical was getting dumped straight into the electrical motor.

> If you think about it, you could just buy an off the shelf generator, shove it on a trailer and hook it up to your EV. If you have a EV pickup, you can just sacrifice some space in the back. This isn't that hard. You only need a few kw of output from the generator. A simple, small, and cheap one would be good enough.

The relative efficiency of your typical generator is probably not on the order of most car engines, I'd wager. Especially, again, going back to Toyota/Ford hybrid designs, the engine is can do an atkinson cycle which is more efficient (at the expense of larger engine size to power ratio.) Willing to bet most generators don't have nearly as much/good 'scrubbing' equipment for the exhaust compared to a modern car either.

> The reason companies like Toyota are trying to sell you a much harder to maintain and much more complicated solution instead is not because they haven't thought about it but because they have a large sunken investment in ICE engine manufacturing that they want to milk for a bit longer.

I do still agree with most of this, but TBH a series-hybrid setup (at least for the single speed Aisin units and Ford's HF transmissions to date) can be in many ways wayyy simpler than most modern cars. Lots of em don't even have direct injection, let alone turbochargers, and the gearbox itself is simpler than any modern automatic.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#62
post #52
post #26

I'm a bit excited but also a bit tired of hearing about all these batteries. I just want someone to wake me up when we have a commercially available 1kwh+/kg with decent durability, decent price, and good safety. Maybe this is a good idea for an ammoseek website but for batteries that can send alerts. I'm honestly surprised a quick search didn't turn one up.

That feels like a very high bar. A really good 500Wh/kg battery would already be completely revolutionary. That’s when you start to unlock practical short range electric flights for instance. It’d probably be enough for all forms of land transportation as well (except very small niches, like if you need to cross a huge desert off-road) If you get to 1kwh/kg I don’t think you even need good durability and low price to…

It's definitely a high bar. I set it that way because there have been a handful of battery announcements claiming they can get to that number over the past 5 years. I want it and I want it now. Haha

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless if the spent battery calls are released during the flight, via parachute, to be recharched later. We currently call spent batteries "empty" but in this case spent = "full" (of oxygen).

I imagine the extra complexity, parachute and release system weight, and risk would nix that.

Just use drop pod technology; some jet fighters have AFAIK disposable under-wing fuel tanks.

Only dropping one that self-tests to high enough confidence/quality, and using e.g. GPS or laser guided bomb technology with a parachute and catch net at the landing site:

With a good net you can drop a human in a wind proof ski-suit (cold air!) and with an oxygen bottle from the Armstrong limit where their blood starts to boil, something like 18km, notably without a parachute. So it will be easy to catch a pod that falls sideways on a drouge chute to trade off parachute size (weight!) and net height/give.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#64
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Tesla Model 3 consumes about 50MJ of battery energy per 100 km. Toyota Prius consumes about 4.5 liters of gasoline. That gives roughly 150 MJ. So a electrical car consumes 3 times less or about 33% of energy of one of the best hybrid drivetrain.

Is that fresh out of the factory or after a few years of service? I think a lot of the metrics around hybrids are a bit optimistic. In the same way that official metrics for EV ranges are usually a bit more than is realistic. Hybrids running on battery are about as efficient as an EV. When you enter the highway, they turn into ordinary ICE engines. If you use your prius exclusively for traffic in your neighborhood, y…

I bought Toyota Yaris Hybrid in 2012. Toyota at that time claimed it should be 4.4 l/100. My average after 4 years before I sold it was 5.1. So my usage was just 15% off. And this was in Norway with a lot of driving in mountains.

On the other hand with electrical cars that I rented and from what I heard from friends the real range was shorter by 20% or more.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the extra complexity, parachute and release system weight, and risk would nix that.

Just use drop pod technology; some jet fighters have AFAIK disposable under-wing fuel tanks. Only dropping one that self-tests to high enough confidence/quality, and using e.g. GPS or laser guided bomb technology with a parachute and catch net at the landing site: With a good net you can drop a human in a wind proof ski-suit (cold air!) and with an oxygen bottle from the Armstrong limit where their blood starts to bo…

So all the batteries are on the belly and a door opens up in flight when they get heavy and they get yeeted? Now you need to have sensors and actuators and inspections on all these doors. The cost of the plane just meaningfully increased.

Mechanical systems experience failure, so now your pilots need to train on the procedure for a stuck drop pod door. It'll probably change the flight characteristics and fuel efficiency while stuck open, so any time that happens it is now an emergency. That just added some operational costs for stranded passengers. You also would probably need a whole new cert for the airframe for any changes to your drop pods.

Throw them in little nacelles under the wings? Now slipping it onto the runway gets harder, more pilot training. What's the procedure for a battery pod strike? More training and more procedure and more certification. More redundant safety systems.

Throw them in the wings themselves? Now if the drop doors get stuck you really have a suboptimal flight condition.

I don't doubt that the technical challenges are surmountable, but all these considerations could literally double the cost of operating a plane compared to just accepting a lower MTOW. The military does all this crazy stuff because it's a hard mission requirement and they don't care how much it costs.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most optimal thing is to just use ICE engines as a generator/range extender that tops up the battery. Most hydrogen vehicles actually work like that as well: the fuel cell is basically used as a generator to top up the battery. Some of the Chinese plugin hybrids are starting to do this. Those basically are EVs with a generator bolted on to extend the range to something crazy like well over 1000 miles. These vehic…

But running such a series hybrid with minimal charge of the batteries means almost all power is from the engine. And if that is undersized that won't end well.

AKA The Mazda MX30 PHEV. (And a couple of hybrids with similar design from the EU).

The Mazda's rotary gets ~70-75HP if the internet is to be believed. But oh, unlike many PHEVs that have 30-ish miles of range it has 50, so it's got a decently larger battery and starts to get into the 'Where GP is right about plug-in hybrids being marketing fluff'.

My general understanding is that they are a very unpleasant experience in such a state despite whatever range advantages you are given. Because of the relative weight of the batteries to give even 100 miles of range, the small engine isn't that useful on the highway and on a steep hill even less so.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. In a fuel cell the reaction products are discarded (the reactants cannot be discarded, as they are needed for the reaction to take place). In a metal-air battery, air from the atmosphere is taken into the battery and the oxygen from it becomes bound to the metal, in a metal oxide. So unlike for a fuel cell, where the vehicle becomes lighter after the fuel is consumed and the reaction products are discarde…

How would an aluminum-ion battery work out as for as theoretical charge per weight or volume? I know that is decades out, of course.

Alcoa and Phinergy demonstrated an aluminium-air battery over a decade ago that enabled 1600km range. The downside is that it had to be swapped out and recycled after it was spent (which explains why Alcoa's interest since it would gain business from the ongoing re-processing of aluminium).

https://eepower.com/news/ev-with-1000-mile-range-unveiled-by... https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/electric-car-with-massive-ra...

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#68

Does it use external air? Would this technically make it a fuel cell and not a battery, since some of the reactants are discarded :)

Not really. In a fuel cell the reaction products are discarded (the reactants cannot be discarded, as they are needed for the reaction to take place). In a metal-air battery, air from the atmosphere is taken into the battery and the oxygen from it becomes bound to the metal, in a metal oxide. So unlike for a fuel cell, where the vehicle becomes lighter after the fuel is consumed and the reaction products are discarde…

So suppose a car had methane and oxygen onboard like a rocket and held on to its exhaust products, and you were able to reverse the reaction back to methane and oxygen, it would be a battery not a fuel cell.

Re: A room temperature Li2O-based lithium-air battery enabled by a solid electrolyte

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most optimal thing is to just use ICE engines as a generator/range extender that tops up the battery. Most hydrogen vehicles actually work like that as well: the fuel cell is basically used as a generator to top up the battery. Some of the Chinese plugin hybrids are starting to do this. Those basically are EVs with a generator bolted on to extend the range to something crazy like well over 1000 miles. These vehic…

I previously wondered about the generator trailer. Hook it up for long trips and travel without fear. Can a typical EV battery charge while driving or would they need to be redesigned for this purpose?

A generator trailer can be a swappable battery too.

I think this strategy works super well for electric semis.

I think it is being proposed for electric container shops as well.

Finally, I had hopes those ultra compact rotaries would get commercialized as rechargers for phevs and EV range extenders (I think there was a darpa project mentioned two years ago for a novel inside out rotary).

Honestly the emissions for a recharger that gets used maybe 5-15% of the miles driven by a phev aren't that big of a deal.

If it speeds hybrid and full electrification, and the engine runs in a pretty ideal rpm that is lower emission anyway, then civilization is coming out ahead.

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