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Why Our Elites Stink

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#61

Post by sopooneo »

ritchiea wrote: post #6
wdewind wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point. The problem is in having a system which labels itself meritocratic, because it lacks the concept of an elite. When you have such a system, those who rise to power do so with the personal story that they earned it. Brooks is arguing that while we used to have social values that allowed some classes to project themselves as "elites," at least in those days the elites had a sense of respons…

I agree that he's nostalgic and full of shit but you're putting words in his mouth when you say the problem is "those who rise to power do so with the personal story that they earned it." Brooks is arguing that they DID earn it, he says the mechanisms that put people at the top tend to be honest and that people at the top work more than others. What he's saying when he's being nostalgic is that the old people at the…

Interesting. And if we called it a patronizing attitude, we are using the word in its most literal sense.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#62

Post by crusso »

Domenic_S wrote: post #59
crusso wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Libertarian, I don't want to be in charge of your life. There are lots of us who feel that way.

If you're not in charge of their life, they're in charge of yours because there has to be a power gradient when money (taxes) is involved. I don't want to be in charge of your life, but I don't want to be responsible for paying for it, either.

If you're not in charge of their life, they're in charge of yours

No. Money does not give you control of my life.

Bill Gates can have all the money he wants, but it doesn't mean that he chooses where I can go to school, whether or not I want to risk having health insurance, whether or not I can fill a ditch on my property, whether or not I can marry my same-sex domestic partner, or even whether or not I have to use Windows8.

Government, however, controls all those things and much more. In the context of this thread, the pejorative use of the word "elites" typically refers to those who approve of using government-like power to control the lives of others. Usually, because they are members of the ruling class that has influence with the government and/or because they have plenty enough money to circumvent many of the ways that the government can control their lives.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#63

Post by liber8 »

freyr wrote: post #58
liber8 wrote: post #53

Our Elites have always stunk. Even during perhaps the most creative, innovative, and groundbreaking period in the history of political science (the time around the American revolution), our leaders ran smear campaigns, created laws to freeze out their competitors[1], and even killed each other[2]. But, those great men actually realized, at least to some extent, how much they stunk. They crafted a limited government b…

"Of course, humans don't work that way." Whenever I find myself in doubt regarding liberal viewpoint, it usually can be traced back to this, a fundamental disconnect with the way the majority of humans actually behave. In fairness, strong conservatives draw from an even crazier palette of false assumptions.

The problem is definitely on both sides. Some of the most visible and hilarious examples come just in the last four years. Obama the constitutional scholar (rightly) lambasts the Bush administration for accumulating unauthorized and unchecked executive power. Of course Obama the president doesn't view those newly acquired powers as such evil things. Why would he? Once those powers are in the hands of the "good guys" or the "right elites", it makes it so much easier to do "good". No need to deal with any of the bureaucracy and red tape that would otherwise exist.

And of course the right is now "terrified" that the same powers they enjoyed so freely just four years ago are in the hands of the "bad guys" or the "wrong elites".

It's easy to disconnect yourself with the way humans actually behave when you're the one in power because you believe you won't act the same way that everyone else would.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#64

Post by sp332 »

crusso wrote: post #62
Domenic_S wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not in charge of their life, they're in charge of yours because there has to be a power gradient when money (taxes) is involved. I don't want to be in charge of your life, but I don't want to be responsible for paying for it, either.

If you're not in charge of their life, they're in charge of yours No. Money does not give you control of my life. Bill Gates can have all the money he wants, but it doesn't mean that he chooses where I can go to school, whether or not I want to risk having health insurance, whether or not I can fill a ditch on my property, whether or not I can marry my same-sex domestic partner, or even whether or not I have to use W…

No. Money does not give you control of my life.

Did you read his whole 2-sentence post? When taxes are involved, either I control you (by using your money how I like) or I control you (using my money how you like).

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#65

Post by tryitnow »

This is why I don't pay for access to the NYT.

Brooks is comparing the best elements of the old elites to the worst elements of the new elite. There's certainly a leadership ethos among the new elites. Try walking around an Ivy Leagure campus without being reminded of some politically correct "cause." Even top ranked business schools eagerly embrace "corporate social responsibility" and other concepts implying a sense of "stewardship." They do use the same old-timey language Brooks would prefer, but the basic ethos is still there.

Ignore Brooks's arguments, the book he refers to actually sounds like the real deal. I've long thought that meritocracy has some inherent problems. That's not to say we should throw it out, but rather that we should be aware of the practical and moral limitations of meritocracy.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#67

Post by drumdance »

brown9-2 wrote: post #25
rubashov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point on the disastrous social engineering and urban redevelopment schemes of the 20th century. But, what about sending men to the moon or designing and building the sr-71 in a few years? Or for that matter conquering Japan and Germany in the space of a few years. I argue these are all things our society today would simply not be able to do if placed in the same circumstances. We are less effective.

I argue these are all things our society today would simply not be able to do if placed in the same circumstances. We are less effective. What is this based on? Our society today is still capable of great accomplishments - look at what Google has built in 10 years, the amount of knowledge organized there. I would argue that we seem to be able to accomplish less because as a society our ambitions are smaller. Large go…

That, and there really are constraints now that did not exist then. Building a dam back then did not require environmental impact statements and the like.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#68

Post by drumdance »

tryitnow wrote: post #65

This is why I don't pay for access to the NYT. Brooks is comparing the best elements of the old elites to the worst elements of the new elite. There's certainly a leadership ethos among the new elites. Try walking around an Ivy Leagure campus without being reminded of some politically correct "cause." Even top ranked business schools eagerly embrace "corporate social responsibility" and other concepts implying a sens…

"Brooks is comparing the best elements of the old elites to the worst elements of the new elite"

Well said.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#69

Post by niels_olson »

> today’s elite lacks the self-conscious leadership ethos that the racist, sexist and anti-Semitic old boys’ network did possess.

This nicely sums up something that has plagued me for years now. I grew up on the lower middle class side of WASP. My dad is an engineer and my mom waited tables at Zarda BBQ to cover the mortgage. I went the Naval Academy and got the live-in-spartan-quarters treatment and went out into the fleet and felt the responsibility as I looked in a man's eye and said things he didn't want to hear.

When I went to medical school, married with two kids, having completed two tours on ships and a tour on staff back at the Academy, everything got turned on its head. Here were strivers, but, and I remember thinking then "There I was running with a wolf pack. Now I'm swimming with sharks".

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#70

Post by tomjen3 »

crusso wrote: post #56
tomjen3 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is nearly everyone.

As a Libertarian, I don't want to be in charge of your life. There are lots of us who feel that way.

While I appreciate the belief, I didn't mean people being in power over me, directly.

Don't you ever think, If I was president I wouldn't have made X decision? Or if I had the power I would abolish the IRS, scale back the government, etc?

As a libertarian you would believe those things to be good, so you would want them, right? Supposed somebody offered you the position of power to institute them, wouldn't you accept it?

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