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Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

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Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#61

Post by th0ma5 »

tivert wrote: post #60
th0ma5 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is exactly it, any remote thing that can disqualify people that is today forgiven, and additionally, where Chevron comes in, that a lot of these norms are rules within departments where such things can be evaluated, but Project 2025 says if it isn't a law or statute then it doesn't matter, and that includes any concept of a person living here but not a full, naturalized citizen.

> Yes this is exactly it, any remote thing that can disqualify people that is today forgiven... No that's not at all "exactly it." Do you realize you're moving the goalposts? Looking for flaws in an applications according to existing critera is totally different than somehow retroactively declaring the previous regulations were invalid and screwing everyone who relied on them by revoking their naturalization. > where…

Well I don't know what to tell ya man. I am too dumb to just invent this. Go dig through Jamelle's videos or ping him when he's on twitch about this. Send me a link if you do.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#62

Post by monsieurgaufre »

Saline9515 wrote: post #40
bastard_op wrote: post #12

Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying…

It's not limited to the US. Here in Latvia, which is one of the poorest EU country, we have seen an influx of Indian citizens willing to emigrate. Many will work for little more than 1 or 2€ per hour, and come here by bribing emigration officiers or paying fees to local shady schools that act as visa mills.

Canada as well.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#63

Post by cudgy »

jltsiren wrote: post #35
29athrowaway wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan to make raise the minimum salary for H1B so that it cannot be used to save money. And to slow down the application process, increase fees and force people to rely on premium processing more.

Making the process itself harder can be counterproductive. Every system will be gamed. The ones gaming the system often stand to gain more than those the system is intended for. A visa program for skilled/talented individuals is supposed to select people who could find good opportunities elsewhere. Getting a job in the US is not a big deal for them. On the other hand, an average person who somehow manages to qualify…

> you are effectively telling the skilled and talented people to go elsewhere. Then you get more people trying to game the system and hoping for a lucky win.

Isn’t this the false argument that tech companies have been making for decades?

“Imagine all the highly talented people that companies will miss out on if we don’t have this program?“ meanwhile, the vast majority of the people being hired are average developers, many of whom are less qualified and talented than the locals. The only major distinction is the salary and now that the programs been so rampant for so long, enough of the H1B path employees are in the system that they control the hiring.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#64

Post by jltsiren »

cudgy wrote: post #63
jltsiren wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the process itself harder can be counterproductive. Every system will be gamed. The ones gaming the system often stand to gain more than those the system is intended for. A visa program for skilled/talented individuals is supposed to select people who could find good opportunities elsewhere. Getting a job in the US is not a big deal for them. On the other hand, an average person who somehow manages to qualify…

> you are effectively telling the skilled and talented people to go elsewhere. Then you get more people trying to game the system and hoping for a lucky win. Isn’t this the false argument that tech companies have been making for decades? “Imagine all the highly talented people that companies will miss out on if we don’t have this program?“ meanwhile, the vast majority of the people being hired are average developers,…

Those two are not mutually exclusive. Every country needs programs that bring in foreign talent. And there are always people who try to abuse such programs. The longer a program exist in the same form, the more successful the abusers become.

The answer is supposed to be simple. When a law no longer fulfills its purpose, you change the law. Then the abusers will have a new system to game, and they will be less successful for a while. But that doesn't happen in the US, because the Congress has long been unable or unwilling to do its job.

H-1B works pretty well for the academia. The government trusts that academic recruitment processes are competitive and reasonably meritocratic. But it has much less trust in the industry. That's why H-1B petitions from the industry are subject to the cap and the lottery, while petitions from the academia are not.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#65

Post by tivert »

th0ma5 wrote: post #61
tivert wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes this is exactly it, any remote thing that can disqualify people that is today forgiven... No that's not at all "exactly it." Do you realize you're moving the goalposts? Looking for flaws in an applications according to existing critera is totally different than somehow retroactively declaring the previous regulations were invalid and screwing everyone who relied on them by revoking their naturalization. > where…

Well I don't know what to tell ya man. I am too dumb to just invent this. Go dig through Jamelle's videos or ping him when he's on twitch about this. Send me a link if you do.

> Well I don't know what to tell ya man. I am too dumb to just invent this.

How about admitting you could be wrong? You repeated an unbelievable claim, and so far have failed to support it. The best you seem to be able to do is come up with something superficially similar without realizing the difference.

And I don't think you invented the claim. There's an entire fever swap producing and promulgating fear fantasies like it. The mechanism seems to be: assume the worst, make some hyperbolic speculation, someone repeats that speculation as something that's really planned, rinse, repeat.

> Go dig through Jamelle's videos

That's a totally unreasonable request.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#66

Post by tivert »

jltsiren wrote: post #64
cudgy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are effectively telling the skilled and talented people to go elsewhere. Then you get more people trying to game the system and hoping for a lucky win. Isn’t this the false argument that tech companies have been making for decades? “Imagine all the highly talented people that companies will miss out on if we don’t have this program?“ meanwhile, the vast majority of the people being hired are average developers,…

Those two are not mutually exclusive. Every country needs programs that bring in foreign talent. And there are always people who try to abuse such programs. The longer a program exist in the same form, the more successful the abusers become. The answer is supposed to be simple. When a law no longer fulfills its purpose, you change the law. Then the abusers will have a new system to game, and they will be less success…

> Then the abusers will have a new system to game, and they will be less successful for a while. But that doesn't happen in the US, because the Congress has long been unable or unwilling to do its job.

The simple solution is to remove the employer lock-in, so once an immigrant gets in, they have 6-7 years to job hop. If an employer truly needs foreign talent that it can't get locally, they'd have to have competitive compensation and working conditions. If they don't, they just wasted the sponsorship fees. I don't think there's a way they could effectively game that (especially if you also ban contracts where the immigrant has to repay the sponsor if they job hop).

The fact that the H1B program hasn't been reformed in this way, tells me its real purpose (at least nowadays) is to provide a source of cheaper labor to undercut American workers.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#67

Post by simoncion »

dartharva wrote: post #47
simoncion wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, I've worked with H1-Bs who get their green card who are much, much younger than 132 years. Something doesn't add up here. Are you perhaps relying on a number that has been inflated by relatively-recent staffing shortages?

132 years is the waitlist now. And it will only increase, Indians will very likely be looking at a 200-year waitlist by the end of this decade. The successful green card holders you mention are those who came in early (in the 2000s and 2010s) and got through before the situation became so crazy. Or, in some cases, O1-holders.

I contrast this:

> 132 years is the waitlist now.

with this:

> Getting an employment-based green card normally takes a few years. ... But the real issue for immigrants from India (and to a lesser extent from China, Mexico, and Philippines) is the 7% country cap. Those who qualify for EB-1 can skip the line and get their green cards in a semi-reasonable time. Those in EB-2 and lower priority categories are out of luck.

I'm pretty sure that I've never worked with someone on a work visa who's legitimately an EB-1 [0], so everyone I've seen get permanent citizenship has been either an EB-2 [1] or (more likely) an EB-3 [2].

> The successful green card holders you mention are those who came in early (in the 2000s and 2010s).

It's strange (and borderline manipulative) to call "Getting their green card in 2019" "coming in early".

Anyway. Given that it seems the major cause for the lengthy wait (whether or not it's actually rising to 200 years) is per-country quotas (rather than staffing problems), the wait seems totally reasonable to me. Plus, with many US-based BigCos hiring assloads of Indian nationals situated physically in India, it strikes me that this concern about green cards is less relevant than in decades past.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent...>

[1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent...>

[2] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent...>

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#68

Post by crusty »

mschuster91 wrote: post #24
margorczynski wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US to drop an anchor kid to force naturalization I've always wondered why the US didn't change this law (to right of blood)? The current approach was created when the US was just a colony and needed a quick injection of people. Now it doesn't make much sense and creates a plethora of problems as I understand.

> I've always wondered why the US didn't change this law (to right of blood)? Because that is enshrined in the Constitution [1] and amendments are very very rare to happen [2] even in a time when politicians were actually interested in running the country vs just "owning" the opposing side. And there's many things that more desperately need constitutional reform than getting rid of "anchor babies" - FPTP, Electoral C…

Add campaign finance.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#69

Post by nujabe »

dartharva wrote: post #47
simoncion wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, I've worked with H1-Bs who get their green card who are much, much younger than 132 years. Something doesn't add up here. Are you perhaps relying on a number that has been inflated by relatively-recent staffing shortages?

132 years is the waitlist now. And it will only increase, Indians will very likely be looking at a 200-year waitlist by the end of this decade. The successful green card holders you mention are those who came in early (in the 2000s and 2010s) and got through before the situation became so crazy. Or, in some cases, O1-holders.

Your claims just do not add up with my experience. I know Indians who graduated college in the US in the past 4-5 years that have received their green cards in the past year.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#70

Post by th0ma5 »

tivert wrote: post #65
th0ma5 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I don't know what to tell ya man. I am too dumb to just invent this. Go dig through Jamelle's videos or ping him when he's on twitch about this. Send me a link if you do.

> Well I don't know what to tell ya man. I am too dumb to just invent this. How about admitting you could be wrong? You repeated an unbelievable claim, and so far have failed to support it. The best you seem to be able to do is come up with something superficially similar without realizing the difference. And I don't think you invented the claim. There's an entire fever swap producing and promulgating fear fantasies…

Is it though? You're trying to refute someone else's argument through me. And it is confusing, either I am wrong or they are making it up, it seems weird that it could be either of those when it could be neither.
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