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Performance improvement plans are on the rise

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#61

Nothing really bad about a PIP. You get to coast for months while you do interviews prior to being fired. Never been PIP'd myself, but I would prefer it than being fired without warning.

I would drastically prefer a lack of warning over a lack of reason, and I cannot help but interpret any other position as disingenuous.

I suppose it depends if you value your own ego over your financial well being?

I don't hold any expectations from my employer other than being an employer. Being hired is as much part of a job as quitting or being fired.

All that said, I don't care what reason an employer has to wanting me out. It really does not matter to me. All I need is time to plan ahead so I come out unscathed. Who knows? I may even find a better job on my way out.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would drastically prefer a lack of warning over a lack of reason, and I cannot help but interpret any other position as disingenuous.

A lack of warning can leave you in the lurch financially and career-wise. Getting the heads+up that it's time to find a new job let's you keep banking paychecks while you make a seamless transition to a new opportunity.

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#63
post #21
post #5

There is nothing to hate here. I have given numerous PIP's as a manager and only actually fired once. The purpose of a PIP is to improve, not to fire a person.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

More soul destroying than "your performance is shit, so shit I see no hope your worthwhile, get out?"

I think the GP is overly optimistic about a PIP. In general I'll say when I've put someone on a PIP, it's been with the expectation of firing at the end. "We have discussed this problem and I've made it clear you need to improve, this is your last chance, I need to see x, y, and z (where X Y and Z are as concrete and measurable as possible) or mm/dd will be your last day". It's making clear that whatever issues are involved have come to a head, and this is the final chance to fix them. My general assumption is that if spelling out the issues and providing coaching hasn't resolved the issue the PIP probably won't either, but I do see value in a clear process vs the cut just being whenever I decide to do it, with no warning that day is coming.

I have also actually seen this work in practice. I've had people who multiple conversations and coaching seemed to make no inroads, but putting that clear "if this isn't resolved by X day, we're done" expectation out there seemed to make it "real" and they've completely turned things around. I have promoted people I've previously put on a PIP.

That said my advice remains, if your put on a PIP it's time to start looking. I think many (most?) managers d use them cynically where a PIP is more paper trail than final warning, and the employee may be getting fired regardless. Even if that's not the case you've just been told very clearly it's not working. Something isn't working and it's better to hedge your bets and look for another job that fits better while trying to improve.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#64
post #29

I got put on a PIP at Amazon, and even at the time I thought it was a reasonable criticism. I then worked hard, graduated out of the PIP, and stayed there a few more years. (I also opted-in to a second PIP (with my manager's knowledge and assistance) when I was leaving so I could get severance, but I don't really count that) One of my current mentees got put on a PIP a couple years ago, and she likewise has significa…

> So while PIPs might be started with the expectation that most employees won't improve, I think they're also started with the hope that they will. I've seen it both ways and I think it comes down to the quality of the company and the manager - which, of course, varies widely. A good manager doesn't need PIPs because they're always communicating clearly and consistently to their reports about how they're doing. Ultim…

> A good manager doesn't need PIPs because they're always communicating clearly and consistently to their reports about how they're doing.

I'm not sure this is true. I'm definitely open to the idea that I was a bad manager or there were things I wasn't doing well, but not communicating my expectations clearly is not something I've ever been accused of. Or at least not once I had some experience. Management comes with a learning curve.

I have had an employee where I and their direct manager were very much communicating they weren't meeting expectations, including coaching and providing warning that their job was now at risk, that only did a 180 when put on a PIP. I think for some people there is power in putting a concrete date on things vs something that needs fixed "soon".

The employee in question continued to improve post-PIP and got promoted. I don't know what happened after I left the company, but I have no reason to doubt they continued to do well.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is what pip percentages say about management. Either HR hires and management approves 20 % duds - or your company is a rockstar shredder machine. Neither is a pleasant truth.

I think .20 is an underestimate. Under performers are likely in the .25 to .35 percent range. It is hard to find the right people and so there is an acceptance of good enough. The PIPs start with the most egregious or if cash flow is tight. An owner I worked for called it trimming the dead wood. From the business side it is best to get rid of some people. Its best for the remaining people too.

> Its best for the remaining people too.

It sure doesn't feel that way to me, as someone who has seen lower-performing (I'd hesitate to label them under-performing, these people simply never should've been hired into the role they were put into in the first place, but those are anecdotes for another time) be PIPed and ultimately let go, because all it means is my own workload is going to go from fucked to even-more-fucked.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#66
post #29

I got put on a PIP at Amazon, and even at the time I thought it was a reasonable criticism. I then worked hard, graduated out of the PIP, and stayed there a few more years. (I also opted-in to a second PIP (with my manager's knowledge and assistance) when I was leaving so I could get severance, but I don't really count that) One of my current mentees got put on a PIP a couple years ago, and she likewise has significa…

PIPs are a double edged blade. If the worker passes the pip, but regresses immediately, then we can't just keep yo-yoing with multiple pips per year.

So unfortunately, this means when an EM creates a PIP, to prevent Yo-Yoing, they need you to leave.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#67

With at-will employment is a pip necessary? What happens if you fire someone who is performing?

Specifically regarding at-will employment and the United States, you can still be sued for discrimination based on race, gender, and all other protected classes. PIPs and other similar processes are primarily created, from a legal/HR perspective, to protect against those lawsuits.

So, somewhat counterintuitively, at-will employment in the United States(especially in states like California) is not actually at-will in a practical sense do to the threat of discrimination lawsuits.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#68

With at-will employment is a pip necessary? What happens if you fire someone who is performing?

The issue is unemployment payments. In many states, if you fire someone without cause then you have to make the unemployment payments. If you fire with cause then you don't.

Most states in the United States will still provide unemployment payments for an employee terminated for performance.

The company needs to prove a gross negligence level of employee conduct to deny unemployment. Things like not showing up to work or workplace sabotage.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#69
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too was put on a PIP early in my career, and worked my way out of it. It was fine. That said, I agree with the general sentiment that much more often than not the employer is not acting in good faith. Over the decades I've seen way too many colleagues get put on a PIP, I tell them to work hard because it can get better, and then they get let go anyways. Not sure what I'd do today if it happened to me. Probably a bi…

Worked as a PM at a well known tech company, great relationship with my director. He leaves, new director comes in and within three months I'm on a PIP. I'm given a list of work products to create for a new offering that has been discussed, which on the face of it are entirely reasonable, and the standard 30 days. 100% ghosted by my Director. Weekly 1:1s? He no-shows 2 of them. Near zero input. In "fairness", I knew…

Can you sue or something in that situation?

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#70
post #66
post #29

I got put on a PIP at Amazon, and even at the time I thought it was a reasonable criticism. I then worked hard, graduated out of the PIP, and stayed there a few more years. (I also opted-in to a second PIP (with my manager's knowledge and assistance) when I was leaving so I could get severance, but I don't really count that) One of my current mentees got put on a PIP a couple years ago, and she likewise has significa…

PIPs are a double edged blade. If the worker passes the pip, but regresses immediately, then we can't just keep yo-yoing with multiple pips per year. So unfortunately, this means when an EM creates a PIP, to prevent Yo-Yoing, they need you to leave.

How do you know its the workers fault and not the nature of this role in the company?
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