Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships • Hacker News Board

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#61

Post by taeric » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:45 AM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #56

pingou wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For now it seems the improvements (sulphur regulations) only made the situation worse, in term of climate change.

That's the wrong framing. The NOx and SOx emissions were going to have to go eventually. It's true that it might have been better to phase it out over a year or two so it was less of a shock as the hard deadline that ended up hapenning, but we couldn't keep constantly polluting forever (which is the only way to keep those aerosols in the air). Sulphur regulations just unmasked some of the global warming that had alre…

This feels dishonest? The sulfur clouds were keeping temperatures down. Largely in ways that were not really related to green house gasses. Exposing the ocean to more sun increases temperatures of the ocean. Likely influences currents, as well. In ways independent of heat we are trapping in the atmosphere.

Should we have stopped the sulfur? Agreed that that answer is almost certainly still yes. Questions that this leads to are cleaner artificial clouds. Not to control weather, per se. Rather, to reduce ocean heating.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#62

Post by m463 » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:09 AM UTC

nick3443 wrote: post #59

PlunderBunny wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the diesel ferries that operate from Auckland harbour will be replaced with electric ferries next year and in 2026. Apparently ferries in Auckland carry only 6% of public transport passengers, but account for 20% of the public transport emissions [0]. 0. https://at.govt.nz/bus-train-ferry/ferry-services/low-emissi...

Going fast in water takes incredible amounts of power.

I don't know why hydrofoils aren't more popular

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#63

Post by entropicgravity » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:43 AM UTC

The future of shipping is ammonia. It has, pretty much, all the attributes of fossil fuels but being NH4 it doesn't produce an earth warming byproduct.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#64

Post by itake » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 6:29 AM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #42

hwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like that is a conversion and retrofit of ships that were already unmaintainable: https://washingtonstatestandard.com/briefs/conversion-of-was... Modernizing all the control systems etc is the nightmare. The ferries were already electric- all ferries are; they have diesel engines driving generators which drive electric motors. They still have the exact same generators running the same motors. The batteries a…

Sure but you have to think of the entire system which includes staff, training , charging infrastructure, power supply, possibly fuel for the charging infrastructure, backup/redundancy, maintenance, parts / distribution etc. An entire infrastructure network that had been operating for decades. Diesel is more than just fuel, it’s an entire system.

I also heard the power companies just don't have the extra power to supply the ferries. The terminals need to be redesigned to receive and emit that much juice.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#65

Post by euroderf » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 9:42 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #55

elihu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very little of the shipping industry is US-flagged. That's true for international shipping, but for shipping between U.S. ports, the ships have to be U.S. flagged due to the Jones act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 I agree though that focusing on small U.S. flagged ships is not very representative of shipping in general.

There is very little shipping between us ports. Not zero, but not much.

Speculation: this system propped up by the long-distance trucking lobby.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#66

Post by euroderf » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 9:45 AM UTC

elzbardico wrote: post #45

A Lithium fire battery in a cruise ship in the middle of the Pacific would be a truly unique experience.

Is LFP an option ? Thermal runaway, O2 venting, they go away AFAICT.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#67

Post by euroderf » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 9:49 AM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #4

tonymet wrote: post #2

Ferry service in the Puget Sound (Seattle Area) has suffered due to delays with electric ferries. The state refuses to maintain their existing fleet. Every line has frequent delays, and the international route which was suspended for “a couple years” in 2021 is now delayed until 2030. The frustration people have with electric isn’t the technology – it’s the dogmatic commitment to technology that isn’t quite ready, ba…

I've traveled on a battery electric ship in Norway, quite a few years ago. It recharged while docked loading passengers using two high voltage high current cables slung from a crane.

This sounds like a great way to keep consumer e-vehicles from hogging charger spots.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#68

Post by pornel » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 11:45 AM UTC

hwillis wrote: post #3

Wow, this is a really good paper. Supplementary info is really great too- they get into details down to floating charging port stations as part of the infrastructure. Surprising how much demand is from tugboats. I have questions about how you'd safely hook up 5 MW connections, but it's definitely solvable.

Here's more about electric tugboats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9XZIpOTcw

They can have super high torque. Quiet motors allow them to operate where diesel wouldn't be allowed due noise pollution.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#69

Post by elihu » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #55

elihu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very little of the shipping industry is US-flagged. That's true for international shipping, but for shipping between U.S. ports, the ships have to be U.S. flagged due to the Jones act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 I agree though that focusing on small U.S. flagged ships is not very representative of shipping in general.

There is very little shipping between us ports. Not zero, but not much.

I can believe that.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#70

Post by DanielHB » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 2:59 PM UTC

I wonder how viable an autonomous single-container electric cargo ship would be, instead of massive ships you could have thousands of tiny ones. With automated loading/unloading it could massively simplify logistics

A solar panel covering the ship and one of those flaps to generate power from wind with a EV-scale battery could be enough for containers moving light non-time-sensitive stuff. Probably wouldn't be able to run the engine at night for long though.

Heck throw some wheels at it and fast charging at docks and it could even potentially drive down the road as a truck directly from sea.