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How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

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Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#61
post #44

There are larger industrial robots that use secondary encoders to improve "out of the box" accuracy for more demanding tasks. The secondary joint feedback is paired with a kinematic model of the robot structure/mechanics to accurately predict where the robot tool point actually is. https://electroimpact.com/Products/Robots/AchievingAccuracy

Of what use are the primary encoders then?

It lets you see the position of the motor's shaft. That's used in some motor control algorithms, even if the motor's position isn't exactly the joint's position.

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#62
post #48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m not mistaken, one encoder measures the position and force applied by the motor, while the other encoder measure the position of the slack of the business end of the robot.

Doesn't this youtube project infringe on the patent which this company holds, then? https://electroimpact.com/Company/PatentFiles/US8989898B2.pd...

How in the world can a company get a patent on math and basic techniques that have been around for decades before the patent was even filed? I can understand materials, unique “first come” algos, brand new mechanics, but there nothing novel in that patent. There’s nothing novel about having secondary (or tertiary or ….)feedback for a system

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this youtube project infringe on the patent which this company holds, then? https://electroimpact.com/Company/PatentFiles/US8989898B2.pd...

Legit question: if I replicate a patent for a personal non profit use, is this infringement? Perhaps it is because I'm benefiting from the intelectual property.

Call it what it is,investigative journalism

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#64
post #48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m not mistaken, one encoder measures the position and force applied by the motor, while the other encoder measure the position of the slack of the business end of the robot.

Doesn't this youtube project infringe on the patent which this company holds, then? https://electroimpact.com/Company/PatentFiles/US8989898B2.pd...

What part of the patent in your opinion infringed by the youtube video?

Robot arms have existed long before 2015. And a lot of them use some combination of encoders. The term "secondary feedback" by itself without clarification doesn't really mean anything specific, and in terms used by the patent I would call this more of adding primary/primary feedback system. The part that the patent seems to repeat is having secondary position sensor attached to the mechanical joint of robot (I assume as opposed to encoders already builtin into the servo drive), although patentability of even that seems somewhat questionable in 2015. I am not that good at reading patents, so maybe I am missing the actually relevant/novel part of that patent.

In the video both encoders are builtin the servo, instead of attached to the arm itself, even more the extra angle sensor introduced by author is attached directly to motor before the gearbox and it's slop which is complete opposite of what the patent tries to claim. The angle servo attached to output shaft after gearbox is what all hobby servos have.

If you go through the actual claims of patent most of them are not applicable to the video. 1) "system for large-scale assembly operations, ... secondary feedback mounted to joint ...". Not suitable for large scale asembly operations, no feedback attach to joint, both feedback systems are built in the hacked servos and can't measure any slop within the joint itself or servo to joint connection. 2) angular accuracy of 0.05 arcminutes - very unlikely 4) system of claim 1 wherein the manufacturing assembly is an aerospace assembly - no aerospace assembly making here, 5) 6rotary axis and 1 linear axis - no linear axis, 6) secondary feedback system is optical encoder -> questionable whether the optical angle sensor attached before gearbox matches the definition of "secondary encoder" as described by rest of the patent, also optical encoders is typically used for describing relative postion/angle sensor based on bunch of slits and counting pulses instead of analog amplitude measurement which gives absolute position. Typically I wouldn't bother with minute differences in classification of how the angle sensor is implemented, but since patent explicitly lists very specific sensor technologies I guess it matters. Otherwise they could just claim that there is an angle sensor/encoder. 7) secondary feedback system is inductive encoder - no inductive encoders here, 8) magnetic encoder - no magnetic encoders, 9) secondary feedback system is resolver - no resolver here (as in analog angle sensor based on ac coupling change depending on angle between two parts to directly generate the sin/cos of angle), 10) "system for acurate large scale-manufacturing assembly operations, ... >3 axis robot arm, with end tool, secondary feedback mounted on rotary joint" - this just more or less restates claim 1 only this time mentioning >=3 instead of >= 6 axis for some reason and mentions an end tool. Is ballpoint pen an end tool for large-scale manufacturing operations? Also the secondary feedback thing discussed before.

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#65
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you don't like video and would prefer text, or is it something specific to YouTube that you object to? For many topics, video is really helpful in understanding stuff.

It's a mix of both, I guess. I don't like youtube taking over for text based sources. It's less accessible, way less efficient, and feeds into the google surveillance machine.

This doesn't address your (valid) systemic concerns, but on efficiency the way I like to use links like this is by adding them to a queue for later, then, if I have an opportunity to play them while doing the dishes or commuting or just feeling like watching a television I play them back, usually at higher speed of playback than 1.0. If I'm just sitting on the couch actively watching I'll read ahead in the transcript and skip ahead if I feel like it.

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#67

I've always wondered... Why aren't pantographs used more with robots when precision is needed? It's used to cut precise wood pieces or carve wood or metal etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph https://youtu.be/s56J_Rnh_Co You use the "big" part to drive the "small" one, which gives it great precision.

Feynman brings up some problems with pantographs and precision in https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/1976/1/1960Bottom.pdf (page 6-7). I haven't thought about it myself, though.

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#68
post #54
post #20

If anyone wants to build this sort of thing the new Raspberry Pie Pico 2 is both orders of magnitude more capable than the chip used here and also around half the price. It's by far the best value for money for an introductory 32bit ARM/Risk embedded device right now.

Be aware, per erratum 9, that you’ll need to include external pull-downs instead of using the internal ones

[deleted]

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#69

I've always wondered... Why aren't pantographs used more with robots when precision is needed? It's used to cut precise wood pieces or carve wood or metal etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph https://youtu.be/s56J_Rnh_Co You use the "big" part to drive the "small" one, which gives it great precision.

Pantographs are mostly useful in 2 dimensions and any robot only needing two dimensions can just use rails which will be more accurate

Re: How can this 6 axis robot have a static accuracy of 0.05 mm? (2021) [video]

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of 3d printers without a complete gantry. The bambulab a1 mini or prusa mini to name just two.

Those two printers are also smaller and not as accurate at high speeds. The A1 Mini's slicer automatically places parts close to the Z axis in an attempt to reduce the issues and it uses input shaping, but given the printer can lift itself off the ground at default speeds that's not a perfect solution either. There's a reason the larger and faster printers often use the CoreXY design instead.

Of course, there's always trade offs in (mechanical) design choices. But their static accuracy absolutely is that good, which is fascinating at that price point.
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