Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself • Hacker News Board

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#61

Post by blhack » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:16 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #50

drcube wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain the Burning Man comment please. I'm involved in the local Burners scene, but I've never been to the the big one in Black Rock City. My wife is going this year with a friend, but she was gifted a ticket. So I would like to know what stupid decisions and exacerbated problems I will see if I decide to buy a ticket for next year's burn. Thanks.

Last year Burning Man sold out for the first time. In an attempt to alleviate the shortages, this year they had a lottery where people could request up to four tickets per person. The obvious strategy was to request more than you needed, in order to hedge your risk of losing the lottery (essentially a prisoner's dilemma situation). The utterly predictable outcome was worse shortages. They added an aftermarket to "fix…

*Two tickets per person

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#62

Post by Androsynth » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:17 PM UTC

drivingmenuts wrote: post #54

Androsynth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the customers are willing to pay the scalpers price, that means the demand exists. You say 'flip them for profit' as if thats a bad thing, but as long as people buy those tickets, its just smoothing out the market.

This is the artist himself saying that he'd rather have true fans in the seats at a reasonable price, rather than have the tickets snapped up by the asshole with the biggest wallet (not sorry for editorializing, that's the politest version of my view of scalpers). The add-on effect he's looking for is fan retention over time. If 500 people bought from a scalper at some much higher price, there's a small chance that t…

So true fans are poor? What does having a fatter wallet have to do with your taste in comedy?

Also, fans don't work the way you think they do. If I like Louis CK, I like Louis CK. If he chooses to charge $500 for a ticket, I will just watch him on TV. It won't cause me to resent him.

In a perfect market, if enough people feel the same way, the price will drop down into the range that I am comfortable paying. If, on the other hand, he has so many fans that some are willing to pay exorbitant amounts to see him live, I will be forced to watch him on TV.

If he wants to give everyone (rich and poor) the chance to experience his set live, he needs to increase supply by touring more.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#63

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:18 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #26

This is of course interesting and will lead to inevitable comments about disruption being needed in event ticketing. Let me save you the trouble as this has been rehashed many times already: the problem here is Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues and the entertainment's willingness to let Ticketmaster be the "sacrificial anode" and focus of ire from both audiences and performers. There was a deal done some years ago-…

[deleted]

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#64

Post by brianpan » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #59

joezydeco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scalping confuses demand. If 1000 people want to see a show in a theatre with 1000 seats, that would be an ideal market. But in reality you get 2000 people trying to buy tickets for that show. 1000 are the fans and 1000 are people trying to buy the tickets to flip them for a profit. The artificial demand creates a market that benefits nobody except the scalpers. The fan loses by paying higher prices, and the artist l…

The artificial demand you mention is essentially speculation. The scalpers are betting that the actual price attendees are willing to pay is higher than the initial selling price, which leads them to buy the ticket. This system still requires players who ultimately purchase the tickets for the utility of seeing the show. If $100 tickets ultimately get sold for $2,000 to actual attendees, the original seller significa…

I'm definitely not an econ expert (far from it). Scalpers may not be confusing demand. But aren't they're artificially constraining supply? There are a limited number of shows and seats available.

If I'm a scalper and I buy the last 100 seats (or rather, I have the last 100 seats not taken by someone who actually is going), I can now sell the tickets at a premium. If there are only 75 more fans that want to go, they are forced to come to me and the prices go up artificially. I can still profit without selling all the tickets. Without me the scalper, there would have been enough tickets to go around at face value.

Yes, the price is going up because people are willing to pay for it, but without the scalper it wouldn't have happened.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#65

Post by pyoung » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

Androsynth wrote: post #35

mhartl wrote: post #15

For his shows, C.K. saw scalping rates as high as 25%, driving up the price of his shows for people who wanted to attend, by those who didn’t. The only people driving up the price of the shows are people who want to attend. How could it be otherwise? People who don't want to go to the show certainly don't raise prices. If scalpers can profit, it means you aren't charging market price. Policies like the one described…

yeah I'm confused, isn't scalping a necessary side effect of the process? It seems natural if you sell tickets at a constant price over time and don't adjust that for higher demand (as event gets closer in time) or lower supply (as tickets are sold). Also, is scalping a bad thing? It seems to me that they are making the market more efficient.

The SF Giants use a variable ticket pricing scheme that seems to be pretty successful. It adjusts the price of tickets based on projected demand. This probably does a pretty good job at eating into scalpers profits (although not entirely). Of course baseball ticket demand is a lot more predictable due to the fact that their are ~80 home games a season.

It would be interesting to see if there was any way to implement a similar system for concerts and shows.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#66

Post by Androsynth » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

sambe wrote: post #55

joezydeco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scalping confuses demand. If 1000 people want to see a show in a theatre with 1000 seats, that would be an ideal market. But in reality you get 2000 people trying to buy tickets for that show. 1000 are the fans and 1000 are people trying to buy the tickets to flip them for a profit. The artificial demand creates a market that benefits nobody except the scalpers. The fan loses by paying higher prices, and the artist l…

How is there artificial demand? The scalpers aren't buying tickets for fun - there has to be someone to flip them TO. These people are fans and they create the demand, as stated in the grandparent. Edit: a common "rebuttal" in this thread (see diek, potch, drivingmenuts) seems to be that there is an assumption of correct market price being the aim. That isn't the assumption or the point. The point is that excess dema…

Re: Correct Market Pricing

1-This is inherently a class-based argument. It assumes that someone with more money than you isn't a 'real fan' and that his true fans are the squeezed middle class (or whatever class-bracket you happen to be in).

2-The world doesn't owe you anything. Thinking this is unfair because you can't afford tickets to a stand-up comedy show is the epitome of a First-World problem.

edit: this isn't exactly a reply to sambe's comment. I was taking his 'Correct Market Pricing' comment that was addressed at the rebuttals and adding to it.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#67

Post by masklinn » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

Androsynth wrote: post #62

drivingmenuts wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the artist himself saying that he'd rather have true fans in the seats at a reasonable price, rather than have the tickets snapped up by the asshole with the biggest wallet (not sorry for editorializing, that's the politest version of my view of scalpers). The add-on effect he's looking for is fan retention over time. If 500 people bought from a scalper at some much higher price, there's a small chance that t…

So true fans are poor? What does having a fatter wallet have to do with your taste in comedy? Also, fans don't work the way you think they do. If I like Louis CK, I like Louis CK . If he chooses to charge $500 for a ticket, I will just watch him on TV. It won't cause me to resent him. In a perfect market, if enough people feel the same way, the price will drop down into the range that I am comfortable paying. If, on…

> So true fans are poor?

No? True fans are alone, and true fans are not necessarily the earliest at the gate. If scalpers can grab half the tickets before the show's sold out by buying in bulk, they're going to make a lot of money. Because now they control the product.

> he needs to increase supply by touring more.

He's booked 67 dates, he's only one guy, touring more? He'll need to put his million of sales in cloning if he wants to do that.

But he's at least found a way to keep control on prices and scalping and give everybody equal opportunity.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#68

Post by joezydeco » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

Androsynth wrote: post #51

joezydeco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scalping confuses demand. If 1000 people want to see a show in a theatre with 1000 seats, that would be an ideal market. But in reality you get 2000 people trying to buy tickets for that show. 1000 are the fans and 1000 are people trying to buy the tickets to flip them for a profit. The artificial demand creates a market that benefits nobody except the scalpers. The fan loses by paying higher prices, and the artist l…

But if the customers are willing to pay the scalpers price, that means the demand exists. You say 'flip them for profit' as if thats a bad thing, but as long as people buy those tickets, its just smoothing out the market.

I do say it as a bad thing. In my example, the 1000 fans and the artist would have been perfectly happy with the arrangement. Of course this is never the case.

So the scalpers are profiting from the mismatch in supply and demand and making the show less accessible to the fans. From a scalper POV, that's capitalism. God bless America. From the fans's POV, it just sucks.

And I could swap Louis CK for oil, and scalpers for Goldman Sachs, you know. Same thing IMO.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#69

Post by rmc » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:35 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #26

This is of course interesting and will lead to inevitable comments about disruption being needed in event ticketing. Let me save you the trouble as this has been rehashed many times already: the problem here is Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues and the entertainment's willingness to let Ticketmaster be the "sacrificial anode" and focus of ire from both audiences and performers. There was a deal done some years ago-…

Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues

Another problem, especially when a ticketing start up tries to go after a medium or large venue, is that Ticketmaster has the capital to give venues (some) of the money from the ticket sales before their sold (e.g. a few months or a year before). The venue then has money to do stuff before the event.

To compete against that, you need to have a lot of money in the bank (i.e. not a start up).

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#70

Post by masklinn » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 7:35 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #56

warfangle wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem with scalpers is they reduce the supply of the tickets endemically, thus driving the market price up. If the scalpers aren't involved at all, the market price is lower than the scalped price.

The scalpers are the market-makers. If there were an official market, the scalpers would be out of business overnight.

> The scalpers are the market-makers.

So what? They're not adding any value in the equation, they're just parasitically extracting wealth from all other entities. What's the point of that from a social perspective?