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Care Doesn't Scale

stevenscrawls.com

61–70 of 382 posts

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#61
post #46

> But I wonder if part of that smaller focus comes from a deep realization that care doesn’t scale. My experience (and I believe it to be common) is that I'm really, really, really out of spare energy to care about anyone or anything else. Mind you, I'm in my best shape in years and I've explored my limits to find out they're actually way further than I originally thought, but still.

There was a story on HN a while ago that I can't seem to remember the title of.

It was something along the lines of "The optimal amount of slack in an organization is not zero", or something like that.

The argument was that, since it's impossible to plan for every eventuality, you need a certain amount of slack capacity in order to retain some flexibility. And that by always using 100% capacity, we end up dysfunctional.

I think the same is true for our personal lives.

But the endless treadmill of self-optimization, side-hustles and ever more commitments leaves us unable to cope.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#62

This is ultimately a dichotomy between having the family unit or "the state" as the central point of governance. Many totalitarian regimes looked at newborns as "belonging to the state". The result is a unified mass person who dresses, thinks and acts in predictable ways. The more power, personal connection and influence parents have over their children, the more diverse society will become.

You’re describing the extremes on a spectrum, but you only go to one of the extremes, which exposes your bias.

And it’s a false dichotomy to begin with, since shifting more care work towards society doesn’t equate to a path toward totalitarianism. You’re conflating socialism with totalitarianism. Understandable, but misguided.

Frankly, your whole premise is based on a capitalist narrative that keeps workers in their place because individual care work is so inefficient—it drains energy that could otherwise be channeled into organizing worker councils to balance out the power now disproportionately held by banks, IT corporations, political parties, and the military-industrial complex.

I’m aware that I may come across as an arrogant prick in this comment. I wish I had more time to craft a friendlier response with more sources and explanation, but I simply don’t. I need to work to feed my children and their mother, but anyway, here’s a reading list for anyone who’s interested:

"Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?" by Mark Fisher - Fisher discusses how capitalism has permeated every aspect of life, including care work, and critiques the idea that alternatives like socialism lead to totalitarianism.

"Workers of the World: Essays Toward a New History of the Working Class" by Philip A. H. G. D. Van der Linden - This collection explores the historical context of labor movements and the importance of organizing against disproportionate power structures.

"The Care Crisis: What’s Wrong with Care and How to Fix It" by the Institute of Public Policy Research - This report outlines the societal implications of care work and its impact on worker organization.

"Wages for Housework" by Silvia Federici - Federici argues for the recognition and compensation of domestic labor, linking it to broader struggles against capitalist exploitation.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#63
post #40
post #29

> Scale isn’t bad, at least not necessarily. Industrial is perfectly capable of being better than custom. Sometimes the YouTube video is more helpful than the private tutor. This is not true; consider the argument that there is always a loss of quality in scaling. Industrial maybe better than average custom, but is always worse than best customs. Broadcast lecture is almost always worse than a tutor whose discourse i…

I agree the average tutor is better than the average lecturer. But if I watch a YouTube lecture, then I might have access to the best lecturer in the world, or at least a 99%ile lecturer, e.g 3blue1brown. This only works because of the scale -- it wouldn't be possible for millions to get access to tutors this good 1 on 1.

but can you argue with them for an indeterminate period of time in earnest dialogue until the idea goes CLICK inside your head? You cannot, and so the value is much lessened because that critical access isn’t present.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#64

Strange definition of "one to one". It sounds more like 4-to-1 to me.

4 people taking care of 4 kids 24/7 in 24 hour shifts. From article:

> To get that individualized care, though, they had four social workers and four children. One-to-one. [...] But you couldn’t stray that far from one-to-one without changing the nature of the experience, without industrializing it to the point that individual care is lost.

I don't think you need the ratio of worker:child to be 1:1 in order to provide 1:1 care.

The alternative might be 20 social workers taking care of a group of 20 kids. It's the same ratio of workers to kids, since no 1 worker will get to deeply know individuals in the group.

I agree 1:1 is confusing and not totally accurate but it's fine for illustrating the point.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a reference to orphans.

Then I'm completely lost on how it is relevant to an article that specifically mentions the care of orphans as its central example for how care does not scale.

I think the idea is that many totalitarian systems treat every child as an orphan, in some cases taking them physically away from their parents and then have people look after the children as a job. Hence the comparable situation.

And, of course, all such systems I've ever read about do not care about the practical limitation of 1 caretaker per 1 child. I believe youth services in the Netherlands, for example, has 1 caretaker (effectively available to the child) per 15 children, or 7 or 8 if they're trouble. Does this work? No, of course not. They don't care. The kids grow up caring for nobody, probably because effectively nobody cares for them. One person watching 15 children can only hope to prevent disasters, if that, they cannot provide decent attention to children. By the standards of this article, there's probably 2 people who work in the same "group". If there's a third one, they will be shared between at least to groups. So 2 to 2.5 per 15 children ... comes to one parent figure per 7 children, which is a third to a fourth of the care children would receive in even a huge family, and much less than in a small family.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#67
Q: How many Silicon Valley software engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: They will refuse to change the lightbulb, claiming it "doesn't scale" unless the "lightbulb problem" is fixed globally ;)

In seriousness, enjoyed this article and it's a wise realization. I think the world would be a better place if more people take the time to be a good person to the people around them, rather than focusing so much on big picture issues.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#68

> In any given moment, you can only really care deeply and individually for one person. What does this imply, that two parents cannot care for three children? I disagree.

No, because normal healthy children do not require 24/7 care, even as newborns. Children in care do, partly because of the circumstances that led to them being in care, but mostly because the State in general is not willing to accept the same risk profile as individual parents.

I think it comes down to the many meaning of the word "care" in English. The state is certainly willing to accept way greater risk than the individual parent, in many circumstances. If we take something like daycare, which I presume is included in "care", then it's typically four children per adult until the age of 4, in schools it goes down to 20+ children per one adult, where at home it might be more than two adults per child (but also less obviously).

The risk profile is different, if you have a newborn in hospital, then that child may have their parent present at all times, plus staff, but it might also be one or two nurses and an on-call doctor for any number of babies. In some sense the potential risk is greater, but it's also more professionally measured.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they go on to say > With four kids, the kids can feel like kids; if there were forty kids, they’d probably feel like they were cattle. The point of the article is that you’ll never achieve economies of scale (10, 100, 1000x) for situations that require individualized attention, no matter how much engineering effort you put into it. At least with today’s technology…

The quiver full movement is certainly testing the limits.

I would argue that they found it and that kids are not getting that individual attention they need.

Re: Care Doesn't Scale

#70
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care is not something that is magically performed by the state or money. At some point someone has to physically wash and feed the elderly in the retirement homes. If past governments or cultural environments messed up demographics, states might end up with a significant fraction (Germany already has 22% aged 65+) of the population in need of that care, which requires another significant share of the population to ju…

Or importing even more foreign workers. Which I'm not strictly against, but does come with it's own set of challenges.

>Or importing even more foreign workers.

Except you can't force foreign workers to do shit jobs the locals don't want. They're not slaves.

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