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Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

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Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#61

Post by littlestymaar »

bamboozled wrote: post #50
baq wrote: post #2

> “With the goal of completing the decommissioning in 30 to 40 years [...]" Can't decide if it's a success of nuclear or a failure. Leaning towards success: - ~900 tons of super duper radioactive material is more or less safely sitting in steel enclosures - we're (as a global civilization) slowly but surely figuring out how to move the hazardous waste to a safer storage, and it may only (ahem) take a couple generatio…

If you were a Japanese tax payer, would it be a success ? The total cleanup costs were estimated to be between 50.5 and 71 trillion yen ($470 to $660 billion). For the cleanup, only 184.3 billion yen was reserved in the September supplementary budget of prefecture Fukushima, and some funds in the central government's third supplementary budget of 2011.

And who do you think they will be paying it to?

Subsidizing Japanese companies to develop technologies that may be exported elsewhere isn't that bad of a deal actually.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#62

Post by littlestymaar »

Krasnol wrote: post #19
baq wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-nuclear movement succeeded in Germany and they’re reaping the crops now. Nobody will go back to 1800s quality of life willingly if they can help it, be it by burning coal, trash, plastics, tires or paint cans for heat or electricity.

Oh, sure they are reaping. 61.5% of Germany's electricity comes from renewable sources[1]. What nuclear generated has been replaced years ago, and they have a law to phase out coal completely. The only weird thing about it is that they're being hated on so much from the nuclear-bubble, while the bubble simultaneously drags the shield of innovation and environment protection. Meanwhile, there is negligible innovation…

> 61.5% of Germany's electricity comes from renewable sources[1]. What nuclear generated has been replaced years ago, and they have a law to phase out coal completely.

472g of C02 per kW/h as we speak[1]. 20 times more than France and its nuclear.

A resounding success…

[1]: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#63

Post by 7952 »

slt2021 wrote: post #51
Krasnol wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has 34 000km (21 126 miles) of coastline. They import about 90% of its energy requirements. This includes nuclear fuel. So this is far away from "perfect" if you can get wind and sun without having to import it.

nuclear fuel: nuclear rods can last about 3-7 years, lets say 5 on avg. 150 rods per 1 GW reactor. so its like one or two rail cars of fuel - extremely compact footprint. how calculate yourself how much fossil fuel you need to power 1 GW power plant for half a decade, and how much CO2 emissions will you generate? How many rail cars of coal Germany will need to generate 1 GW 24/7/365 for 5 years reliably ? it is just…

So for nuclear power to be successful you just have to change human nature and politics to secure long term investment. And do so in countries that cannot even figure out how to properly fund education.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#64

Post by visarga »

slt2021 wrote: post #51
Krasnol wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has 34 000km (21 126 miles) of coastline. They import about 90% of its energy requirements. This includes nuclear fuel. So this is far away from "perfect" if you can get wind and sun without having to import it.

nuclear fuel: nuclear rods can last about 3-7 years, lets say 5 on avg. 150 rods per 1 GW reactor. so its like one or two rail cars of fuel - extremely compact footprint. how calculate yourself how much fossil fuel you need to power 1 GW power plant for half a decade, and how much CO2 emissions will you generate? How many rail cars of coal Germany will need to generate 1 GW 24/7/365 for 5 years reliably ? it is just…

Technically, solar is also nuclear.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#65

Post by duskwuff »

accrual wrote: post #13

> TEPCO speculates that radiation passing through camera semiconductor elements caused electrical charge to build up, and that the charge will drain if the cameras are left on in a relatively low-dose environment. It was the latest setback in a very long project. I found this interesting. I wonder how many of the ICs onboard the robot are radiation hardened, and how many are just COTS with the hope they'll last for t…

As I understand it, part of the problem is that the vast majority of components simply don't exist in rad-hardened versions. The cost of having a hardened part manufactured and qualified is high, and demand is low; only a few manufacturers bother.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#66

Post by foxyv »

baq wrote: post #2

> “With the goal of completing the decommissioning in 30 to 40 years [...]" Can't decide if it's a success of nuclear or a failure. Leaning towards success: - ~900 tons of super duper radioactive material is more or less safely sitting in steel enclosures - we're (as a global civilization) slowly but surely figuring out how to move the hazardous waste to a safer storage, and it may only (ahem) take a couple generatio…

To add to your point. Disposal of nuclear waste at sea was common up until 1993. There is still a couple hundred thousand tons of such waste sitting in the ocean right now. In addition, about 214 times as much radioactive material was generated by nuclear testing than the Chernobyl breach. Fukushima wouldn't even come close to the waste that has already been released prior to the 1994 ban on Oceanic dumping.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#67

Post by legulere »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
Krasnol wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, sure they are reaping. 61.5% of Germany's electricity comes from renewable sources[1]. What nuclear generated has been replaced years ago, and they have a law to phase out coal completely. The only weird thing about it is that they're being hated on so much from the nuclear-bubble, while the bubble simultaneously drags the shield of innovation and environment protection. Meanwhile, there is negligible innovation…

> 61.5% of Germany's electricity comes from renewable sources Now. For years they switched to coal. Even today, Germany falls to the siren songs of the gas lobby, who promise a €1.5tn investment into gas infrastructure will be happily written off for the sake of the planet.

Nuclear was replaced by renewables, not by coal: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutschla... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generati...

A point you certainly can argue about, is that coal should have been replaced by renewables before nuclear, but that discussion is over now.

For gas use electricity production is just a minor use. Most gas is consumed by industry and for heating purposes. Not enough happened in Germany in the last years electrifying them.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#68

Post by exe34 »

bamboozled wrote: post #54
autoexecbat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to pay for it all this year

Very naive comment. It’s still a lot of money. Are you aware about the current economic and demographic situation in Japan ? It’s not good here. That money could’ve went to a lot more useful things. Also remember this was a man made disaster. The plant was not upgraded (as recommended) to meet new safety guidelines, because, as if a mega tsunami would actually happen, right ? Then right after the event the operator w…

> The plant was not upgraded (as recommended) to meet new safety guidelines, because, as if a mega tsunami would actually happen, right ?

And others on this same thread are trying to use the same disaster to paint nuclear as expensive.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#69

Post by exe34 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #60
polotics wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chernobyl with its totally mad graphite design is not representative of safe designs like Fukushima, or French plants, or even Chinese plants...

Yet we've had Chernobyl, Fukushima, Three Mile Island, Sellafield and many others (military ones too). Unforeseen accidents happen. Wars too, which tend to destroy safety equipment. Artillery was fired around Zaporizhzhia when the reactors were still online, Ukraine is currently invading Russia near Kursk where two of the mad-graphite RBMK reactors are still operational today. I hope they try to avoid those when blow…

> It feels like playing with fire

Much safer to burn the rest of the planet instead.

Re: Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel

#70

Post by slt2021 »

7952 wrote: post #63
slt2021 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nuclear fuel: nuclear rods can last about 3-7 years, lets say 5 on avg. 150 rods per 1 GW reactor. so its like one or two rail cars of fuel - extremely compact footprint. how calculate yourself how much fossil fuel you need to power 1 GW power plant for half a decade, and how much CO2 emissions will you generate? How many rail cars of coal Germany will need to generate 1 GW 24/7/365 for 5 years reliably ? it is just…

So for nuclear power to be successful you just have to change human nature and politics to secure long term investment. And do so in countries that cannot even figure out how to properly fund education.

the fact that we allowed non-technical people with liberal arts education, who have no concept of physics and energy, to make nuclear a political issue is a big failure.

Plus oil rich countries lobbying LNG as a greener alternative for nuclear is another fail

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