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Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

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Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#61

Post by Paradigma11 »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #35
compsciphd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran and Israel did get along before the Islamic revolution.

Edit after walthamstow's Feedback: The Islamic revolution which was a consequence of the CIAs interference?

The revolution was a quarter of a century after the Shah came to power. It is a bit silly to state counterfactuals over such a long period in such an unstable and violent region. The Shah's reign was pretty popular during the first decade, it went quickly downhill after that. Mossadegh was only prime minister for 2 years. Two extrapolate in any way from this is ridiculous.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#62

Post by aniviacat »

yawboakye wrote: post #59
noduerme wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to en…

there are graver flaws in your analysis. his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to edu…

> ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you.

Of course our values are influenced by the society we grow up in. If people weren't influenced by those surrounding them, I believe our society would significantly worse off.

(In my country the government does not have direct enough control over education to dictate the culture being taught. It's the teachers, or more general, the society as a whole, which teaches its values to young people.)

But I don't think it's reasonable to discredit someone's believes as their own, just because they were influenced by others. People who grow up within the same society do still often have opinions which differ greatly. So while people certainly are influenced by their society, they still shape their opinions themselves.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#63

Post by Epskampie »

parshua wrote: post #58

[flagged]

Do you think that Iran would do any better given the opportunity? The very fact that you where able to freely learn of these attrocities commited committed by your own leaders, is only due to you living in a democratic country. Where you to live in Iran, or China, Russia or any other dictatorship for that matter, the situation would be very different.

No one should deny that that is plenty wrong with the western world and it's actions, but to suggest that a totalitarian regime, that engages in suppression of women and gruesome violence against protestors, is somehow equal or even superior is just plain wrong.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#64

Post by exe34 »

yawboakye wrote: post #54
exe34 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the people usually want democracy, but the leaders prefer autocracy.

> the people all peoples are not the same. this is an error of abstraction. if you were to enumerate attributes of a society fit for democracy, what would you require of its people? do all peoples already possess these?

wanting and deserving aren't the same thing.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#66

Post by wiseowise »

Almondsetat wrote: post #9
liamwire wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s awesome to see totalitarian theocracies make advances in technologies that have parallel military uses?

You're right. Nations we don't like should stay in the stone age, especially the people.

> Nations we don't like

Autocratic hellhole that oppresses its people, sponsors terrorist groups and supports kleptocracy that destroys Ukraine right now.

You’re phrasing “don’t like” like we’re talking about food preferences or color of clothes.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#67

Post by meiraleal »

vladms wrote: post #31
yawboakye wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you seem not to like how iran is setup, which makes it absolutely necessary that they’re able to put up a resistance should people who think like you attack them. as far as the universe goes, many beliefs about ways of human society organization exist. democracy works for one, not for the other. in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country. but it has made us subservient to the west, so naturally the we…

> democracy has been the undoing of my home country ... given us nothing but misery From what I see around the world for democracy to work it needs a certain degree of social cohesion, which some countries lack. The prevalence of some characteristics (ex: fanaticism, tribalism, corruption) are incompatible with democracy, and will ruin shortly attempts to have "working democracies". Some western countries (not all, g…

> Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it".

It is amazing tho how they always impose it choosing the corrupt leaders that sell all state Enterprise and national resources for pennies to said western country "multinationals"

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#68

Post by Rinzler89 »

piva00 wrote: post #57
spwa4 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that standard, the taliban are the result of socialism. Really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Contemp... The taliban came to power by stopping socialist massacres, most famously in a "torture prison" the socialists built. That is what made people choose their side. They killed less people in open warfare than socialist revolutionaries did in peacetime, and much less than the Soviets did when…

What does that have to do with the CIA coup installing the Shah though?

It doesn't. It's just whataboutism to try to excuse unlawful interference of the US in other countries.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#69

Post by The_Colonel »

yawboakye wrote: post #52
The_Colonel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country Are you sure that it's the democracy which is the cause of your country's trouble? If we consider the counterfactual scenario where your country was not democratic, instead ruled either by some autocrat, theocracy, military junta or something similar, how would that go? While you can find examples of dysfunctional democracies, it still appears to have a bet…

don’t get me wrong, i strongly believe that when a people are fit for it, democracy is the best political organization. but they have to be fit for it. the west transitioned into democracy when they were fit for it but are gradually transitioning out and hiding real political power behind government agencies that are unaffected by the whims and caprices of the crowd (aka electorates). miniature monarchies/tyrannies/e…

Well, I get that democracy does not automatically mean rainbows and unicorns and can get dysfunctional.

My question is - what's the alternative which would work better for your country? Looking at your profile, you're from Africa, where the typical alternative is either a military junta or a theocracy. Why do you think that those would lead to better outcomes in your country?

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#70

Post by vladms »

meiraleal wrote: post #67
vladms wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> democracy has been the undoing of my home country ... given us nothing but misery From what I see around the world for democracy to work it needs a certain degree of social cohesion, which some countries lack. The prevalence of some characteristics (ex: fanaticism, tribalism, corruption) are incompatible with democracy, and will ruin shortly attempts to have "working democracies". Some western countries (not all, g…

> Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it". It is amazing tho how they always impose it choosing the corrupt leaders that sell all state Enterprise and national resources for pennies to said western country "multinationals"

I lived through a change from "authoritarianism" to "some kind of democracy". Many of the people in the country that took advantage of the population before (by being authoritarian) were the ones that sold the enterprises and resources and then used the money to build new enterprises.

Did that change much for me as an individual on the spot? Not much - they were people taking advantage before an after and most people were poor.

Did it change the possibilities on long term? It did. 20 years later there are more developments and opportunities than before under the "authoritarian" regime. Is it equally spread and for everybody? No. But neighbor countries that did not go through the change have it worse...

I am sure not all countries have this trajectory, but some do, YMMV

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