Live data from Hacker News

Who Owns Nebula?

medium.com

61–70 of 108 posts

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#62
post #36

This is approximately what I figured. Whenever I do deeper due diligence, this sort of scam comes up. Literally "whenever." For the record, Nebula is primarily owned and operated by creators. Those creators are: * Dave Wiskus * Brian McManus (Real Engineering) * Alex (LowSpecGamer) * Devin Stone (Legal Eagle) * Thomas Frank * Sam Denby (Wendover Productions) The other creators are getting scammed. This is not an unco…

i'm disappointed in brian mcmanus every time i watch a 'real engineering' video and find out that it's full of factual inaccuracies, like all the previous 'real engineering' videos i watched. you'd think i'd learn, but i keep confusing him with 'practical engineering', which is actually real

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#63
TL;DR

Nebula is a streaming service.

It has a parent company (Standard Broadcast) which owns $83% of the service and has 3 out of 4 board seats.

An external public company (Curiosity Stream) owns the remaining 17% and 1 board seat.

Standard Broadcast is owned by 6 individuals, some of them popular YouTubers.

Content creators who post on Nebula get 50% of the service's total profits (based on watch time).

Content creators (other than the 6 mentioned above) don't own any shares in Nebula, but if the service is ever sold, they get 50% of the proceeds from the sale. This doesn't, however, apply to Standard Broadcast or Curiosity Stream, which can and are sold/traded independently.

Whether Nebula is "creator-owned" or not, as they proudly proclaim front and center on their website and marketing materials, is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#64

I'm cancelling my subscription. I was always suspicious of the "50:50 SB/Ceator" deal. The real way to do something like this imho is via a cooperative, with investors like CuriosityStream and SB providing capital loans. That said, the "ownership" claim is apparently provably false and I've been lied to. The company has operated dishonestly, and frankly the biggest reason I had a subscription was because of what I th…

To me, there's no evidence in any of this that would indicate the creators are misinformed or being scammed. In reality, they know their primary source of revenue is coming from Youtube, and it is a frequent complaint, especially for content creators who do anything marginally political or controversial, that they are demonetized or hit with copyright strikes (even in clear cases of fair use) and have to deal with the faceless Google behemoth trying to reverse these automated decisions. The end result of all this is that their revenue stream is unstable, and they are reminded of it frequently.

To me, the fact that many of them clearly find Nebula a more suitable arrangement for them is still an indicator to me that, if I want to support the creators, Nebula is a better way to do that. Obviously, you can make your own decision on that, and sure, if you feel lied to, I can appreciate being upset about that. But maybe most of these content creators are less concerned with the ownership (they get 0% stake in Google, after all) and more concerned with the profit sharing arrangement. If so, I'm still happy to support them in that.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#65
post #62
post #36

This is approximately what I figured. Whenever I do deeper due diligence, this sort of scam comes up. Literally "whenever." For the record, Nebula is primarily owned and operated by creators. Those creators are: * Dave Wiskus * Brian McManus (Real Engineering) * Alex (LowSpecGamer) * Devin Stone (Legal Eagle) * Thomas Frank * Sam Denby (Wendover Productions) The other creators are getting scammed. This is not an unco…

i'm disappointed in brian mcmanus every time i watch a 'real engineering' video and find out that it's full of factual inaccuracies, like all the previous 'real engineering' videos i watched. you'd think i'd learn, but i keep confusing him with 'practical engineering', which is actually real

Was going to say… I love the practical engineering channel but that channel doesn’t really dive deep enough into any one topic to encounter any factual inaccuracies.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#66
post #36

This is approximately what I figured. Whenever I do deeper due diligence, this sort of scam comes up. Literally "whenever." For the record, Nebula is primarily owned and operated by creators. Those creators are: * Dave Wiskus * Brian McManus (Real Engineering) * Alex (LowSpecGamer) * Devin Stone (Legal Eagle) * Thomas Frank * Sam Denby (Wendover Productions) The other creators are getting scammed. This is not an unco…

I don't understand what the scam is. The structure is opaque which indicates there might be some scam but how would one know what it is?

The accusations of it being a scam are speculative for sure, but they come from a relatable place: the inability to understand why creators would agree to take on "shadow equity" while a small handful of creators get actual real equity.

It sounds like a few creators can sell the equity that is built by many creators at any time, but that all the other creators can only realize their equity if and when the company exits.

If someone bought tickets to a steam ship that stipulated that in the event of an imminent iceberg collision, they can only get on the life-boats after a small group of people ransacked the ship and left on the first life-boat, I might assume that they'd been scammed to. But perhaps they were just desperate or didn't think icebergs were a risk. Regardless, I just know I wouldn't buy that ticket.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#67
post #16

This corporate structure seems a bit sketchy for creators if the platform wants to sell. If they sell Nebula then creators split half of the profits. If they sell Standard then creators get nothing.

Why would Standard get sold though? The value to a buyer is nebula. In fact perhaps they intentionally structured things so as to detach Nebula from Standard to make it easier to spin off.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#68

"On August 23, 2021, the Company purchased a 12% ownership interest in Watch Nebula LLC for $6,000." Surely this must be 6 million USD. I first thought this is a typo, but it is like that in the original SEC filing. Is this some convention I am just oblivious about?

A lot of Corporate financial reports have a baseline of $1k, $10k, $100k or sometimes even $1 million that their figures and charts never have reason to drop below (or are just taken as rounding errors) anywhere in the report and so they just establish the baseline early in the report and all numbers are relative to that. It seems like Curiosity Stream's report was using a $1k baseline and you just multiply all the financial numbers by 1,000.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#69

Real Engineering did a video titled "How Nebula Works" [1]. It details the technical problems. But seemingly deliberately dodges the legal and financial questions I clicked on that video to answer. I love Nebula. But it's obvious that there is a shady component to their structure that prevents transparency that senior leadership knows about and knowingly obfuscates. I'm not arguing for a creator-owned co-operative; t…

You clicked on a video from Real Engineering titled “How Nebula Works” hoping to get answers to legal and financial questions? I think videos with titles like “How Internal Combustion Engines Work” would also deliberately dodge legal and financial questions. Because they’re not what the video is about.

The creator of the channel Legal Eagle is also one of the six main Standard Broadcast owners (with Real Engineering) mentioned in the article, so it sounds like we are waiting for the Legal Eagle "How Nebula Works" video.

Re: Who Owns Nebula?

#70
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is that if you truly own something, you have the right to sell that thing, and nobody can say who you can sell it to . Give it six months and it wouldn’t be “creator-owned” any more, due to cash-strapped creators dumping stock for a payday. A co-op is structurally as much about ensuring that employees can’t transfer their equity to non-employees as it is about ensuring that employees have equity…

That might be the ultimate version of "ownership" but it's by no means the only useful version. Startups typically issue shares or options but restrict selling of them. Does that mean you don't own them? Well it's complicated, but in my opinion it's far more useful to say that yes you do own them than no you don't. I as an employee of a public company receive compensation in the form of shares, but I'm only allowed t…

Ownership of private property (abstract or concrete) is a formal, legally-defined concept — and "do you have essentially sovereign authority over the disposition of the asset" is always at the core of it.

No, you don't own stock when you own stock options. A stock option is a right to purchase stock at a particular price, and you own that right. Just like owning, say, an easement on a piece of land, doesn't mean you own the land. (And both a stock option and an easement have a value, and you may be able to sell those things themselves — but the value they have, and their sale price, is often disconnected from that of the underlying asset the right exercises against.)

You know how you can very easily tell when you own something? Because governments almost always tax transfer of ownership of a thing. You don't pay taxes when you acquire options, because you haven't yet acquired ownership over anything. You do pay taxes when you exercise those options — exercise that right to acquire stock at that price — because now you do own something you didn't before.

Another way to tell that you own a thing, is that you have the ability to directly pledge that thing as collateral on a loan. You can pledge stock, but you can't pledge options[1]. This is because you can contractually grant the bank the ability to confiscate your stock in event of default on the loan, in a way that guarantees that they will succeed in this confiscation. But you can't contractually grant the bank the ability to confiscate your options, in a way that is guaranteed to succeed.

And that's for exactly the reasons you outline: there may be contractual stipulation on the exercise of the options, that mean that the bank can't immediately liquidate the options, and thereby can't balance the loss-of-lendable-assets coming from your default and/or might risk the company's share-price falling, or even the company going bankrupt, before the options may be exercised.

Also, sometimes the bank wouldn't want to exercise a contingent asset they've acquired, but just wants to sell that contingent asset on to someone else who wants to hold and exercise it at a future date. ESOPs in particular usually have voidability clauses that say that not only can't you transfer the option, you can't even build a financial instrument around the option that has the semantics of transferability. Banks very much do not appreciate restrictions like that.

---

[1] Yes, you can show your holding of options as a demonstration of assets, to increase the amount a bank is willing to lend you. But this, like any other demonstration of assets — e.g. a demonstration of employment, or of ownership of revenue-generating assets — goes into a Net Present Value-adjusted future-cashflow projection calculation that the bank does, to determine how likely you will be to be able to make your regular loan payments when everything is going well for you. In the breach, they still need collateral to be pledged out of stuff you actually own — i.e. can guarantee them the right to as a creditor.

Post reply on HN