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Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

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Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#61

Post by pjmlp »

neonsunset wrote: post #60
pjmlp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scala, Clojure, and Kotlin are much more taken care of than F# will ever be. In tooling, books, conferences, critical applications used in large scale across the industry. Meanwhile Microsoft keeps behaving as if it was a management mistake to have added it to VS 2010.

Kotlin? For sure, it's the Android language after all, so it is looked after , sure. Does it integrate better? That's up to debate. For example, F# 9 integrates C# NRTs in the form of T | null unions, which is elegant and idiomatic approach that brings together nullness knowledge between the two. For now, this is not the case with Kotlin. I encourage you to look at the state of Clojure and its usability within larger…

Clojure Datatomic powers Nubank business, just for one example.

Scala still powers a lot of big data and distributed computing frameworks in Java ecosystem. In .NET, the counterparts which only exist for Akka really, are written in C#.

.NET has hardly any big product that is relevant for big data folks, and the ones that exist are equally written in C#.

The only well known flagship product was JET.com, meanwhile acquired by Walmart, which by now was rewriten most of it.

The lack of exposure in .NET ecosystem, not keeping to the story how to sell F#, first companion class libraries, then Web development, maybe type provideders with the World Bank example demoed to exhaustion, maybe machine learning (while Microsoft actually hires Guido and alongside Facebook brings performance improvements and JIT support), only C# and VB are default for Windows desktop workloads, nowadays in what concerns .NET 9, who knows what the theme is.

In Visual Studio 2024 full installation, how many C# workloads also support F# as an option?

It is basically CLI, class libraries, and those old Web projects from the "F# is great for Web" marketing phase.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#62

Post by wruza »

throwaway9524 wrote: post #54
wruza wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Yandex is a Netherlands company, right. Russians have a reasonable tradition to register things outside of “their” country.

As far as companies with a Russian origin go JetBrains and Yandex are at complete odds with each other. JetBrains condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and suspended sales and R&D there shortly after the war broke out then left the country entirely as soon as they relocated the employees. Whereas Yandex stayed and as a result their home page today is chock-full of Russian propaganda. JetBrains may have originated…

Yandex has no way out of Russia. Most of its businesses are russian-targeted and going “full outside” makes zero sense for them, because to continue they’d have to bow before authorities anyway. As a media company, to condemn the war for them meant being instantly raided and re-owned, which sure isn’t far from truth, just was less dramatic.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#63

Post by neonsunset »

pjmlp wrote: post #61
neonsunset wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin? For sure, it's the Android language after all, so it is looked after , sure. Does it integrate better? That's up to debate. For example, F# 9 integrates C# NRTs in the form of T | null unions, which is elegant and idiomatic approach that brings together nullness knowledge between the two. For now, this is not the case with Kotlin. I encourage you to look at the state of Clojure and its usability within larger…

Clojure Datatomic powers Nubank business, just for one example. Scala still powers a lot of big data and distributed computing frameworks in Java ecosystem. In .NET, the counterparts which only exist for Akka really, are written in C#. .NET has hardly any big product that is relevant for big data folks, and the ones that exist are equally written in C#. The only well known flagship product was JET.com, meanwhile acqu…

Do IntelliJ Idea or Eclipse offer Clojure and Scala templates for popular web frameworks out of box? How about multi-platform GUI applications in something that isn't Kotlin multiplatform? Not going to ask about convenient CLI since it just doesn't exist in Java land.

There are other companies which use F# in the area of logistics, pharma and I know of at least one company that has services in it in a bit less reputable industry.

I feel like this kind of perception is highly biased, or, at least, unhelpful.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#64

Post by throwaway9524 »

wruza wrote: post #62
throwaway9524 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as companies with a Russian origin go JetBrains and Yandex are at complete odds with each other. JetBrains condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and suspended sales and R&D there shortly after the war broke out then left the country entirely as soon as they relocated the employees. Whereas Yandex stayed and as a result their home page today is chock-full of Russian propaganda. JetBrains may have originated…

Yandex has no way out of Russia. Most of its businesses are russian-targeted and going “full outside” makes zero sense for them, because to continue they’d have to bow before authorities anyway. As a media company, to condemn the war for them meant being instantly raided and re-owned, which sure isn’t far from truth, just was less dramatic.

Agreed that exiting the country was much easier for JetBrains who are more internationally focused. But my belief is that Yandex leadership made a strategic mistake in not spinning off their core businesses to Europe. They had a chance at establishing themselves as an EU-first search engine, mail provider and cloud that can compete at the equal footing with Google. Yet they blew it and now they are FSB owned in everything but name.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#65

Post by pjmlp »

neonsunset wrote: post #63
pjmlp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clojure Datatomic powers Nubank business, just for one example. Scala still powers a lot of big data and distributed computing frameworks in Java ecosystem. In .NET, the counterparts which only exist for Akka really, are written in C#. .NET has hardly any big product that is relevant for big data folks, and the ones that exist are equally written in C#. The only well known flagship product was JET.com, meanwhile acqu…

Do IntelliJ Idea or Eclipse offer Clojure and Scala templates for popular web frameworks out of box? How about multi-platform GUI applications in something that isn't Kotlin multiplatform? Not going to ask about convenient CLI since it just doesn't exist in Java land. There are other companies which use F# in the area of logistics, pharma and I know of at least one company that has services in it in a bit less reputa…

InteliJ does when you get Ultimate.

Swing is the box, what is the Microsoft in the box solution? MAUI still doesn't do Linux, and is focused on C#.

3rd party stepping in for Microsoft doesn't count in this discussion.

What matters is public perception, and people applying for jobs.

By now I don't expect another fate, other than joining VB and C++/CLI teams, in bug fixing, minor interop improvements to keep up with C# features, as little as possible, and that is it.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#66

Post by fanf2 »

firesteelrain wrote: post #27
joshdavham wrote: post #3

It makes sense that most software innovation has so far happened in the USA, Europe and Japan, but I wonder what this map might look like by the end of the century...

In the US at least, programming languages were either developed by large corporations (Sun Microsystems, Apple, Google, Bell Labs, IBM) or research institutions (MIT) or Government (Ada, COBOL).

Ada was designed at Honeywell-Bull in France.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#67

Post by neonsunset »

pjmlp wrote: post #65
neonsunset wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do IntelliJ Idea or Eclipse offer Clojure and Scala templates for popular web frameworks out of box? How about multi-platform GUI applications in something that isn't Kotlin multiplatform? Not going to ask about convenient CLI since it just doesn't exist in Java land. There are other companies which use F# in the area of logistics, pharma and I know of at least one company that has services in it in a bit less reputa…

InteliJ does when you get Ultimate. Swing is the box, what is the Microsoft in the box solution? MAUI still doesn't do Linux, and is focused on C#. 3rd party stepping in for Microsoft doesn't count in this discussion. What matters is public perception, and people applying for jobs. By now I don't expect another fate, other than joining VB and C++/CLI teams, in bug fixing, minor interop improvements to keep up with C#…

> 3rd party stepping in for Microsoft doesn't count in this discussion.

This completely misses the point of having rich ecosystem nor has any relevance whatsoever from practical standpoint for organizations that have competent leadership.

For all intents and purposes, this would completely disqualify Clojure and Scala themselves since they don’t come from Oracle, and Kotlin if Google/JetBrains don’t count either.

You can’t be serious.

The crybegginng attitude that expects everything to come from first party is extremely damaging to .NET ecosystem because it hinders evolution and innovation, and further expansion of it. Luckily it’s slowly going away but your reply is a good demonstration why it is bad.

Even the current state is too first-party leaning - too many features that have no business being in extension packages let alone CoreLib (e.g. “please fix obsolete System.Drawing on Linux because our legal is incompetent enough to not allow SkiaSharp”)

> VB and C++/CLI

C++/CLI only works on Windows. In no uncertain terms, it is deprecated and effectively dead. You must not write new code with it and existing code must be ported to C# if possible. VB.NET is supported but does not receive new features.

The only possible way for you to compare this to F# is to completely ignore all devblog posts and releases concerning its continuing development. If you did read them, you would also know about the high-effort changes it adopts to stay up to date with the rest of the ecosystem when it introduces new way of doing something. In which case, it is reasonable to ask where do you even pull these assumption from then?

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#68

Post by firesteelrain »

fanf2 wrote: post #66
firesteelrain wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least, programming languages were either developed by large corporations (Sun Microsystems, Apple, Google, Bell Labs, IBM) or research institutions (MIT) or Government (Ada, COBOL).

Ada was designed at Honeywell-Bull in France.

“Ada was originally designed by a team led by French computer scientist Jean Ichbiah of Honeywell under contract to the United States Department of Defense (DoD) from 1977 to 1983.”

This thread was about individuals making languages on their own and my point in this thread is most popular programming languages didn’t gain ground or mature until paid for and sponsored by an org or company.

DoD paid for it and can take credit for developing it.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#69

Post by dunham »

lokimedes wrote: post #44

It may be a bit shallow, but as a Dane, I take some pride in the number of languages created by my countrymen, considering our modest population. *Many have migrated to the US on their way, but still…

I'm working on a toy language (in the US), and I'm 1/8th Danish.

Re: Where are programming languages created? A zoomable map

#70

Post by wruza »

throwaway9524 wrote: post #64
wruza wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yandex has no way out of Russia. Most of its businesses are russian-targeted and going “full outside” makes zero sense for them, because to continue they’d have to bow before authorities anyway. As a media company, to condemn the war for them meant being instantly raided and re-owned, which sure isn’t far from truth, just was less dramatic.

Agreed that exiting the country was much easier for JetBrains who are more internationally focused. But my belief is that Yandex leadership made a strategic mistake in not spinning off their core businesses to Europe. They had a chance at establishing themselves as an EU-first search engine, mail provider and cloud that can compete at the equal footing with Google. Yet they blew it and now they are FSB owned in every…

That would be cool indeed!
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