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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

cnbc.com

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#61

Post by robertlagrant »

Y-bar wrote: post #21
matthewmorgan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Luxembourg?

Which secret sweetheart deals does Luxembourg have? The secrecy and exclusivity were central to the judgement. The EU requires a level playing field for all companies, which is why individual governments striking secret tax deals not available to all companies are seen as an illegal thing. I bet if Ireland had opened the same tax deal they did to Apple, to all companies this would not even have been a matter for the…

Isn't the EU specifically set up to allow competition between states on tax grounds?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#62

Post by jajko »

RickarySanchez wrote: post #37
whacko_quacko wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, because Ireland chose to be part of the EU which its actions are undermining. Also, we accept the fact that in capitalism companies have the goal to maximize profit, but the purpose of a country is not to maximize tax income compared to others

Yeah the purpose of a country is to maximize the opportunity of its citizens which is exactly what Ireland is doing. They're not trying to maximize tax income otherwise they would have a higher rate

Ireland is part of much bigger bloc, and milking it hard since Apple couldn't care less about some irrelevant tiny island nation. The only interesting part of it, it can 'hack' into EU via dodgy tax deals that circumvent EU policies.

Not 100% sure if its illegal, but its highly amoral, no questions there. Here in Europe we don't like that, money is not above else, greed is not good.

The view on this topic boils down largely where your opinion on above stands.

At the end, Apple is just another greedy amoral corporation, just like the rest. Which is fine on its own, but would be nice if some folks would be less fanatical about that brand and got a bit more... balanced view on reality.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#63

Post by eesmith »

InsomniacL wrote: post #2

Seems wrong that Ireland cheated the system to attract tech companies then also gets a huge payout.

I think you should be cautious about saying "Ireland cheated the system". The onus is placed more directly on the Irish tax authority, and then more broadly the government, and then more broadly the voting population, and only then the entire population.

Consider how the ruling says "Ireland had renounced tax revenue, which had given rise to a loss of State resources". This means many people living in Ireland got less government resources than they would have, including people like children and immigrants who did not have the right to vote so cannot be said to have been involved in the cheating, even though they are part of Ireland.

Legally speaking it's not a "payout" but "recovery of unlawful state aid."

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#64

Post by droidist2 »

delusional wrote: post #55
linotype wrote: post #38

What does "illegal" mean? Why is it in quotes? Did they break the law or not? If they didn't break the law, if they adhered to the deal they negotiated with Ireland, isn't this a dangerous precedent? You can just ignore deals because you (EU) said so? Edit: Please downvote me if you must but also post a comment about why I'm wrong. Thanks!

CNBC likes to use quotes for emphasis. It's supposed to emphasize that the EU court believes the tax treatment from Ireland to be illegal. The EU isn't applying any penalty here, this is owed taxes that apple were not billed by the Irish tax authorities. Once you enter the EU, you forfeit part of your sovereignty. That's what Ireland failed to do here. There is no slippery slope. This is the very foundation of the un…

Is that what you'd call "scare quotes"?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#65

Post by skummetmaelk »

gzer0 wrote: post #50

I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…

There's not much uncertainty for business really. If you're pulling the moves that Apple and other companies pull to "optimize tax", then you are with 100% certainty trying to game the system and violating the spirit of the law.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#66

Post by moss2 »

techpression wrote: post #5

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goods and Apple should've known better.

I think this is a common practice in every country. If the tax payer is at fault, the tax payer pays. If the treasury is at fault, the tax payer still pays.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#67

Post by fransje26 »

RickarySanchez wrote: post #33
Etheryte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, agreed, Apple is simply doing what any corporation does, trying to do business as profitably as possible. The only tar bucket you should be having handy is for Ireland for trying to screw over the whole rest of EU.

Well they're not trying to screw over the rest of Europe. They're just gaining a competitive advantage by offering favorable deals. Its something that countries have been doing for much of their existence. To claim their screwing over the rest of Europe is just anti-competitive nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully

> The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully

Well, that's absolutely not orthogonal to the "screwing over Europe" statement. That simply makes two countries trying to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

Nicely hypocritical from the Netherlands by the way, as they are always the ones on their high horses complaining about the financial laxness of the southern and eastern European countries, while at the same time draining them of tax revenues through such constructs.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#68

Post by nonrandomstring »

Nursie wrote: post #4

Good. Not because I particularly dilike Apple or big US tech firms (I have a whole bunch of Apple stuff right here), but because Ireland has been able to undermine the tax regime of the whole EU, by giving these sweetheart tax deals to big firms, who can then run their entire EU business from there. This gives an unfair tax advantage to the multinationals over homegrown EU companies, skewing the market. Is it Apple's…

Good. Because I do particularly dislike big US tech firms who don't pay their taxes and have absolutely no problem owning that emotional capital. This corrects an injustice and seeing that happen makes me feel better, without any need to rationalise or appeal to economics.

btw: I also agree with your economic reasoning

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#69

Post by izacus »

gzer0 wrote: post #50

I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…

I find it interesting how in american corpspeak "uncertanty" pretty much always means "our lawyers can't find a way to avoid this law without getting caught" ^^

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#70

Post by piltdownman »

InsomniacL wrote: post #58

Somehow Ireland gets a 13 billion euro payday for illegally subsidising Apple so they do business in Ireland.

You realise these are American companies exploiting American laws to circumvent their tax burden while operating as MNCs in Europe?

The notion of Ireland somehow getting a '13 billion payday' due to malfeasance or illegality is fantastical beyond belief.

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