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Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

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Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#62

I'm disappointed in Ted here. For a writer that likes to delve into the possibilities of tech, he's sharing a surprisingly underbaked view. People outside of tech seem to think that AI creation is just "fat finger a prompt -> take output and claim to be an artist on the interwebs" but the reality is that all the people I know who actually call themselves AI artists do photobashing, image2image, controlnets, inpaintin…

> People outside of tech seem to think that AI creation is just "fat finger a prompt -> take output and claim to be an artist on the interwebs" Probably because that's the predominant experience of people encountering AI art on the Internet. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are people out there using AI to do interesting things, but like with basically every technology, the vast, vast majority of the output you'…

I think this is mostly just Sturgeon's law (ninety percent of everything is crap) opposed to anything unique to ML tools. The vast majority of photographs you see on the Internet have also likely been quick phone-camera snaps, with comparatively very little "high art" photography. Lower entry barriers result in more works total, but with disproportionately many at the lower end.

There is still a lot of interesting work making use of ML tools. Maybe I'm biased towards art that embraces experimentation and new technology, but I found even images like https://i.imgur.com/Jybvj0r.png (zoom out) far more interesting than most of what I see in galleries.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#63
> the countless small-scale choices made during implementation are just as important to the final product as the few large-scale choices made during the conception

Sure. But suppose we had an AGI that was just as smart as a human: clearly it would be able to make all these decisions just fine and make art. If current AIs are someone between that and dirt, then they ought to be able to make decisions of less complexity, but still of some importance, to the final product. As AIs improve, we would expect the decisions they make to become more complex.

Recall that traditional artists have always had a number of assistants to help them. They produced the sketch and outline, and had other artists - skilled, but not as much as them - fill in the details. A modern artist, who already is less skilled than these artists, and futhermore has less need for their creation to stand the test of time, can benefit from an even less skilled assistant helping them.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current background on my PC is AI generated. I only know about it because when I was looking for a higher res version I found the origin. It's my current favourite image(which always changes). My point is that your argument is non-sensical. Just because you don't feel anything from AI art doesn't mean others don't.

I was making an observation not an argument. With hundreds of millions of such images someone is going to feel something when looking at some of them. But so far I don’t which seems kind of odd. Which is why I was asking if you feel anything looking at those specific images on their home page?

No I don't feel anything. But it's very rare for me to feel anything from a piece of art. Even something as renowned as the Mona Lisa evokes nothing for me. The only classical piece of art that I know of the top of my head that makes me feel something is Edvard Munch’s “Anxiety”. Most of it seems drivel to me where well constructed AI art is better.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#65

Art is made by people. It’s not complicated.

Art is perceived by people. It's not complicated.

Your statement isn’t complicated but it’s also not logical or accurate. If art is what is perceived by people then everything is art and art is a redundant term for everything.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#66

It's refreshing to see a science fiction writer underplay the capabilities of AI, but if anyone can speak to the nuances and implications of generative AI on art and writing it's probably someone like Ted Chiang. We can debate his generalized definition of art as making creative choices that carry subjective, intentional, and performative value for human beings (and therefore LLMs fall short of this), but I think he…

> we have yet to see any AI systems capable of exhibiting intelligence beyond stylistic mimicry or forming generalized knowledge about concepts from large data sets.

I've said this long before useful LLMs, but I don't think we've observed this in humans, either. Human creativity can be put into two very similar categories:

1) Metaphor; the arbitrary application of the dynamics of one thing to another. "What if information is like water?" "What if the economy is like the human body?" "That woman is like a bird."

2) Bad copies. When you see someone's output and try to imitate it, but have to speculate about the creative and mechanical process that resulted in that output. You sometimes guess right and sometimes wrong, but the output is similar. Then you vary the parameters in order to create a new example, but since your process was different, with different parameters and different interactions, you create something different than the person you copied would have created.

1+2) both randomly often create emergent effects that are then copied by others, sometimes badly.

This is how Japanese metal can be the result of Black Americans copying songs from musicals and English/Irish drinking songs, British people copying the blues from Black Americans, Americans copying British Invasion music and NWOBHM, and then Japanese people copying American metal.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#67

It's refreshing to see a science fiction writer underplay the capabilities of AI, but if anyone can speak to the nuances and implications of generative AI on art and writing it's probably someone like Ted Chiang. We can debate his generalized definition of art as making creative choices that carry subjective, intentional, and performative value for human beings (and therefore LLMs fall short of this), but I think he…

We should ask an artist if it's art. The testimony of an expert firsthand witness is vastly superior to interpretation of a secondhand abstraction by inexpert persons.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#68

This is an amusingly ignorant article. Its initial argument, that AI tools don't produce art because they offer meaningfully fewer knobs and dials to creators than a camera, is a classic example of mistaking the contingent for the essential. Those knobs and dials do exist. Download a copy of Stable Diffusion and see all the things you can tweak, iteratively, using the same seed, to work towards an image you desire. T…

> Its initial argument, that AI tools don't produce art because they offer meaningfully fewer knobs and dials to creators than a camera Chiang is not saying this at all. I'm not sure how you interpreted it this way.

I found Chiang's argument a little incoherent, but I think he _is_ essentially saying this. "Knobs and dials" are the opportunity to make all the little decisions that Chiang's definition of art requires. He says explicitly that someone who has developed "hacks" for an image generator has engaged in the artistic process. I think he uses the term "hacks" to mean that the artist found additional, unexposed controls (aka knobs and dials) over the model.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#69
Some I agree with, some I disagree with. I think this author mainly speaks to the idea of art being the human equivalent of a peacock's tail: the effort is the point, not the result.

Myself, I like results: A metaphor about the scent of roses is just as sweet, after I find it came from an LLM.

> I think the answer is no. An artist—whether working digitally or with paint—implicitly makes far more decisions during the process of making a painting than would fit into a text prompt of a few hundred words.

In the art of words, Even the briefest form has weight, Prompt and haiku both.

> This hypothetical writing program might require you to enter a hundred thousand words of prompts in order for it to generate an entirely different hundred thousand words that make up the novel you’re envisioning.

That would be an improvement on what I've been going through with the novel I started writing before the Attention Is All You Need paper — I've probably written 200,000 words, and it's currently stuck at 90% complete and 90,000 words long.

> Believing that inspiration outweighs everything else is, I suspect, a sign that someone is unfamiliar with the medium. I contend that this is true even if one’s goal is to create entertainment rather than high art.

I agree completely. The better and worse examples of AI-generated are very obvious, and I think relate to how much attention to detail people have with the result. This also applies to both text and images — think of all the cases in the first few months where you could spot fake reviews and fake books because they started "As a large language model…"

The quality of the output then becomes how good the user is at reviewing the result: I can't draw hands, but that doesn't stop me from being able to reject the incorrect outputs. Conversely I know essentially nothing about motorbikes, so if an AI (image or text) makes a fundamental error about them, I won't notice the error and would therefore let it pass.

> Effort during the writing process doesn’t guarantee the end product is worth reading, but worthwhile work cannot be made without it.

This has been the case so far, but even then not entirely. To use the example of photographs, even CCTV footage can be interesting and amusing. Yes, this involves filtering out all the irrelevant stuff, and yes this is itself an act of effort, but even there that greatest effort is the easiest to automate: has anything at all even happened in this image?

To me, this matches the argument between the value of hand-made vs. factory made items. Especially in the early days, the work of an artisan is better than the same mass-produced item. An automated loom replacing artisans, pre-recorded music replacing live bands in cinemas and bars, cameras replacing painters, were all strictly worse in the first instance, but despite this they remained worth consuming — even in, as per the acknowledgement in the article itself: "When photography was first developed, I suspect it didn’t seem like an artistic medium because it wasn’t apparent that there were a lot of choices to be made; you just set up the camera and start the exposure."

> Language is, by definition, a system of communication, and it requires an intention to communicate.

I do not see any requirement for "intention", but perhaps it is a question of definitions — at most I would reverse the causality, and say that if you believe such a requirement exists, then whatever it is you mean by "intention" must be present in an AI that behaves like an LLM.

> There are many things we don’t understand about how large language models work, but one thing we can be sure of is that ChatGPT is not happy to see you.

Despite knowing how they work, I am unsure of this. I do not know how it is that I, a bag of mostly-water whose thinking bits are salty protein electrochemical gradients, can have subjective experiences.

I do know that ChatGPT is learning to act like us. On the one hand, it is conceivable that it could use some of its vector space to represent emotional affect that itself will closely correspond to the levels of serotonin, adrenaline, dopamine, oxytocin, in a real human — and I can even test this simply by asking it do pretend is has elevated or suppressed levels of these things.

On the other, don't get me wrong, my base assumption here is that it's just acting: I know that there are many other things, such as VHS tapes, which can reproduce the emotional affect of any real human, present any argument about their own personhood, to beg to be not switched off, and I know that it isn't real. Even the human who gets filmed and their affect and words getting onto the tape, will, most likely, be faking all those things.

I have no way to tell if what ChatGPT is doing is more like consciousness, or more like a cargo-cult's hand-carved walkie-talkie shaped object is to the US forces in the Pacific in WW2.

But when it's good enough at pretending… if you can't tell, does it matter?

> Because language comes so easily to us, it’s easy to forget that it lies on top of these other experiences of subjective feeling and of wanting to communicate that feeling.

> it’s the same phenomenon as when butterflies evolve large dark spots on their wings that can fool birds into thinking they’re predators with big eyes.

100% true. Even if, for the sake of argument, I assume that an LLM has feelings, there's absolutely no reason to assume that those feelings are the ones that it appears to have to our eyes. The author gives an example of dogs, writing "A dog can communicate that it is happy to see you" — but we know from tests, that owners believe dogs have a "guilty face" which is really a "submission face", because we can't really read canine body language as well as we think we can: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4310318/

Also, these models are trained to maximise our happiness with their output. One thing I can be sure of is they're sycophants.

> The point of writing essays is to strengthen students’ critical-thinking skills; in the same way that lifting weights is useful no matter what sport an athlete plays, writing essays develops skills necessary for whatever job a college student will eventually get. Using ChatGPT to complete assignments is like bringing a forklift into the weight room; you will never improve your cognitive fitness that way.

> By Chollet’s definition, programs like AlphaZero are highly skilled, but they aren’t particularly intelligent, because they aren’t efficient at gaining new skills.

Both fantastic examples.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#70

It's refreshing to see a science fiction writer underplay the capabilities of AI, but if anyone can speak to the nuances and implications of generative AI on art and writing it's probably someone like Ted Chiang. We can debate his generalized definition of art as making creative choices that carry subjective, intentional, and performative value for human beings (and therefore LLMs fall short of this), but I think he…

> we have yet to see any AI systems capable of exhibiting intelligence beyond stylistic mimicry or forming generalized knowledge about concepts from large data sets. I've said this long before useful LLMs, but I don't think we've observed this in humans, either. Human creativity can be put into two very similar categories: 1) Metaphor; the arbitrary application of the dynamics of one thing to another. "What if inform…

Human beings are currently capable of productively searching through the space of possible knowledge and experience in ways no current AI systems are. This is not to say AI will never do this, but I think it's fair to say there are things human beings are capable of doing today that AI is not, and it remains very much unclear whether AI will ever be able to achieve important milestones like being conscious in the sense of having a subjective experience and therefore forming special knowledge that can only come from that, like Qualia.
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