Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place • Hacker News Board

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#61

Post by jroseattle » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 2:46 PM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #31

jroseattle wrote: post #8

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here, which ironically points out how Microsoft's presentation this week for a tablet was incoherent and all over the map (kind of like this post.) I guess he's trying to assess Microsoft's position in the market by comparing their product announcement presentation skills to Apple's. Really, when will the likes of Gruber learn that consumers will decide if they like those products,…

Did you even read past the first two paragraphs?! He ranted a bit about the presentation, but his take from this "mess" (as he called it) was completely different than yours...

"even" read?

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#62

Post by steverb » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:02 PM UTC

AllenKids wrote: post #54

steverb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that with the Pro Version I can run whatever software on it I want. We are salivating over these at an enterprise level as it solves several major problems for us (if they work as advertised). It means that rather than buying sales types an Air/Ultrabook along with supporting their iPad/Android we can buy them the surface pro and hand them a Windows Phone and have easy integration. Microsoft understands the…

But that's software isn't it? The Surface Pro hardware is just an Intel Tablet (albeit the slickest one), with the real keyboard cover, this is thicker than a MBA 11", roughly the same weight, unknown battery life and price. Hold the 11" MBA in your hand, pretend it is a tablet, see how that works out ergonomically.

Yeah, it is software. Software that I can manage just like the rest of our software and not have to worry about buying two devices, or convincing the user that I should be able to wipe the device that they bought, or trying to convince them that they shouldn't put sensitive data on a device that I have no way of controlling.

If they need to walk around holding a tablet in clipboard mode all day, then the ARM version would be the platform. Yes, the apps they run would have to be Metro apps, but Metro apps are worlds easier to write (and get deployed) than an iOS app. And I can still re-use that same code on the Pro version if need be.

To my eye, the Surface is what Apple would have made if they ever paid any real attention to enterprise users.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#63

Post by jroseattle » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:13 PM UTC

NaOH wrote: post #23

jroseattle wrote: post #8

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here, which ironically points out how Microsoft's presentation this week for a tablet was incoherent and all over the map (kind of like this post.) I guess he's trying to assess Microsoft's position in the market by comparing their product announcement presentation skills to Apple's. Really, when will the likes of Gruber learn that consumers will decide if they like those products,…

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here... I thought Gruber's point was very clear: Consumer expectations have shifted such that companies which survive (read: profit) are those which make money from reasonably priced hardware while the software is sold at low, low prices. The phenomenal, decades-long profitability of Microsoft has been based on consumers behaving in an opposite way: paying bare-minimum prices for h…

I agree with your points, but I didn't think Gruber made that argument. He referenced others who commented on the subject, but he could have made his point without spending so much time comparing product announcement logistics of the two companies.

I think the shift to their own hardware, for this Surface product, is more about trying to achieve a user experience on par with Apple. It's obvious they haven't learned from Apple in that the user's experience includes first hearing/seeing the product on stage, immediate availability, etc. so the rollout isn't polished (far from it.)

I'm just not sure Microsoft is all-in on recognizing the full profitability shift where their software is essentially a loss leader. If Microsoft releases their own high-end desktop PC and phone with Windows 8 sometime in the next 12 months, then I'll believe they've made that mental leap.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#64

Post by AllenKids » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:19 PM UTC

steverb wrote: post #62

AllenKids wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's software isn't it? The Surface Pro hardware is just an Intel Tablet (albeit the slickest one), with the real keyboard cover, this is thicker than a MBA 11", roughly the same weight, unknown battery life and price. Hold the 11" MBA in your hand, pretend it is a tablet, see how that works out ergonomically.

Yeah, it is software. Software that I can manage just like the rest of our software and not have to worry about buying two devices, or convincing the user that I should be able to wipe the device that they bought, or trying to convince them that they shouldn't put sensitive data on a device that I have no way of controlling. If they need to walk around holding a tablet in clipboard mode all day, then the ARM version…

Apple absolutely does not care about "Enterprise" if Enterprise means only IT people and middle managers who buys the same Wintel stuff year after year after year.

I'm pretty sure Apple does some of the things just to spit you guys, personally. Like requiring iTunes until just recently.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#65

Post by fauigerzigerk » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

technoslut wrote: post #50

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #13

I clicked on this story expecting the usual blatantly biased and totally pointless drivel from this guy. I wasn't disappointed. He keeps raising the bar for embarrassing tech commentary and that's why I will keep reading him knowing full well I shouldn't waste my time on that kind of trolling. Now I'm even wasting your time by commenting on it. Please vote me down to -10 or I'll have to fagellate myself for an entire…

I didn't downvote you but it would be helpful you cited flaws in the article.

The flaws in this post are the same as in every single one of his posts. He makes it sound like he was doing some kind of analysis when it's really just a tortured justification for his preconceptions. It's disingenuous.

What he usually does when he writes about Apple technologies is to look for the good even in the obviously bad. In this piece about a Microsoft technology, he goes out of his way to ignore everything that might potentially be good or interesting.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#66

Post by ZeroGravitas » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

latch wrote: post #2

Microsoft this week showed itself willing to do what was once unthinkable: design and sell its own computer hardware What about the Zune, Kin and Xbox. Two of them might have been disasters, but clearly MS has a history of designing hardware. They are giving too much choice (1). To me, the real issue is availability. They shouldn't have had the press conference until the device was available on the same day. They _al…

People who actually owned one seemed to quite like the Zune. On the other hand if we're calling it a disaster based on amount of money made then the XBox project still has to prove itself on that score, it's not totally clear that they've made back their $10+ Billion investment yet (in part because of poor hardware QA)

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#67

Post by viscanti » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:12 PM UTC

jroseattle wrote: post #8

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here, which ironically points out how Microsoft's presentation this week for a tablet was incoherent and all over the map (kind of like this post.) I guess he's trying to assess Microsoft's position in the market by comparing their product announcement presentation skills to Apple's. Really, when will the likes of Gruber learn that consumers will decide if they like those products,…

Microsoft needs to explain WHY the Surface should exist. It's not immediately obvious to the market why yet another tablet with a different os should exist. Microsoft failed to answer that (and their so-so presentation skills only hurt their efforts).

The big thing here is developer mind-share. Microsoft is trying to leverage their large pc software library, but that seems like a mistake here. Tablet users want touch specific apps. A large library of nearly unusable programs isn't a winning move. They need to get developers engaged with the platform and give them a reason to support a third OS.

It's a chicken/egg problem. They need to convince both consumers as well as developers WHY they should care. That's a tough sell, made all the more difficult by poor presentation skills and no good answer for the question. If Microsoft wants to disrupt the tablet market (and they'll have to if they want to gain any significant market share), they have to do better than just living off their name. They need a game changer and I'm just not seeing it (and that might just come down to their poor ability to communicate).

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#68

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:04 AM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #53

ekianjo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely, I need those things... for about 15% of my working time. By curiosity, what do you do the rest of your working time?

I talk to people. (I'm a teacher)

Allright. In that case I cannot argue.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#69

Post by flatline3 » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 6:06 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #40

gwright wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that most (i.e. > 50%) of iPad and iPhone users replace them on an annual basis. Would love to see some solid data on the actual numbers though.

I don't know. I may be suffering from sample bias, but around me, everyone who have iPads and iPhone change models as soon as one comes out. And they feel an URGE to do it. For reasons I cannot understand. I've also heard the same story from other friends in different places, so I can only assume that a large amount of pre-iPad owners seem to buy a new one systematically. I don't have market research data to prove an…

The new one is better. Faster processor, better screen, more RAM, etc. Not too hard to figure out why people upgrade.

The devices aren't disposable, either. They hold value, and it's easy enough to sell the old one. Nobody is throwing away an iPad.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#70

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 4:06 PM UTC

flatline3 wrote: post #69

ekianjo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I may be suffering from sample bias, but around me, everyone who have iPads and iPhone change models as soon as one comes out. And they feel an URGE to do it. For reasons I cannot understand. I've also heard the same story from other friends in different places, so I can only assume that a large amount of pre-iPad owners seem to buy a new one systematically. I don't have market research data to prove an…

The new one is better. Faster processor, better screen, more RAM, etc. Not too hard to figure out why people upgrade. The devices aren't disposable, either. They hold value, and it's easy enough to sell the old one. Nobody is throwing away an iPad.

The URGE to get a new one is irrational. We dont see that on PC when a new graphic card comes out or something. The iPad replacement pace is massive and hysterical.