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Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

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Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#61

Post by mensetmanusman »

mrtksn wrote: post #60
mensetmanusman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s how their elite roll. If the general public learns how things could be better with less corruption, then the world is slightly better off.

And that's an opinion which might or might not be true. There's also this trend in America of some elites posing as "People's elite", and in this particular case someone from America's elite who has an open agenda on forcing certain believes over people is trying to force something on Brazilian political elite. I wouldn't call it a fight between good and evil, I will call it "I wish we could have the fight in the Col…

Less corruption is better is certainly an opinion.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#62

Post by mrtksn »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #61
mrtksn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's an opinion which might or might not be true. There's also this trend in America of some elites posing as "People's elite", and in this particular case someone from America's elite who has an open agenda on forcing certain believes over people is trying to force something on Brazilian political elite. I wouldn't call it a fight between good and evil, I will call it "I wish we could have the fight in the Col…

Less corruption is better is certainly an opinion.

"Less corruption is better" is much less of an opinion than how you get less corruption.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#63

Post by cassianoleal »

moi2388 wrote: post #45
cassianoleal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brazilian citizen, X / Musk have broken the law and have been fined. The fines are meant to compensate for damages done against my country. I absolutely want that debt to be paid. Moraes, within the boundaries of the law, has seized assets from another company that belongs to the same individual who's committing those crimes and is trying to evade punishment by closing the fined company. This should never be all…

What damage did Elon musk do to your country?

He ignored court orders, he broke the law. By (repeatedly) doing that, he enabled terrorist groups and disinformation networks to attack Brazilian society and democracy.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#64

Post by ben_w »

andsoitis wrote: post #48
josefritzishere wrote: post #26

I see a lot of commenters here holding up Brazil's actions to an American yardstick. If you want to do buisiness abroad you have to follow their rules and their norms. They may well have the legal right to revoke charters, size assetts or more in persuit of the collection of a fine. The Oglobo article makes clear they have violated the law. https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/noticia/2024/08/29/moraes-...

> If you want to do buisiness abroad you have to follow their rules and their norms. If you want to attract business you have to create a reliable and fair system that people can trust in. Once you break that, it is near impossible to regain.

While true, "reliable" and "fair" don't necessarily have to bend to what foreigners think they should mean.

Heck, Americans don't even agree with each other what those things mean in contexts like this.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#65

Post by inglor_cz »

ben_w wrote: post #64
andsoitis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to do buisiness abroad you have to follow their rules and their norms. If you want to attract business you have to create a reliable and fair system that people can trust in. Once you break that, it is near impossible to regain.

While true, "reliable" and "fair" don't necessarily have to bend to what foreigners think they should mean. Heck, Americans don't even agree with each other what those things mean in contexts like this.

You won't ever have a common definition thereof, but looking at capital and human movement, a lot more people trust the US than Brazil with their money and lives.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#66

Post by hkpack »

voxic11 wrote: post #50
xinayder wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately he deleted the tweet and I can't find it anywhere, but it was mentioned during the whole "Twitter Files Brazil" saga where Musk explicitly said "Starlink userd won't be affected if X gets blocked".

Ok so undocumented hearsay?

Musk is well known to tweet inflammatory, controversial, or fake stuff and delete the tweet after few days.

I personally observe some of his viral tweet to be deleted later multiple times.

At some point I had a burst of motivation to start writing a bot to keep track of all the stuff he deleted for people like you to observe, but was quickly disgusted to waste any time to be on top of the argument with some stranger.

So yeah, without google or other search engine's ability to index the whole twitter, everything is written there is hearsay I guess.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#67

Post by lobocinza »

hkpack wrote: post #51
lobocinza wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supreme court members weren't democratically elected. The aristocratic families that own the Brazilian political system and pull the strings behind the curtains weren't democratically elected. Even Maduro, self-appointed "democratically elected" president of Venezuela, from time to time make fun of Brazilian electoral system. Unelected foreign billionaire as a bonus doesn't force me to pay taxes or force me to use X.

> Unelected foreign billionaire as a bonus doesn't force me to pay taxes or force me to use X. I see this sentiment almost everywhere in the world: people rightfully afraid of their own governments and willfully grant influence over their country to the foreign and often enemy state. This is a systems problem with positive feedback loop, which means that whoever wins will have all the influence and control over the p…

You're assuming that the interests of the state are aligned with the interests of the people which is a false premise. The state is a parasitic organism and those in power will always seek their own interests and those of their allies. What liberal democracy achieved is to somewhat bind the interests of the rulers to those of the majority of the population. But this is history as soon as the state starts to control the Internet because today technology enables effective and cheap mass surveillance and censorship like done on China. In the current path all democracies will slowly evolve to illiberal democracies which are effectively authoritarian in all but name.

In Brazil the ruling party (and also the "opposition") are enamored with the Chinese model and as such Musk influence is much preferable and is a balance force in the current political system. If X is blocked in Brazil it will join the select roll of Russia, China, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar, North Korea, Venezuela and Turkmenistan.

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#68

Post by moi2388 »

kranke155 wrote: post #53
moi2388 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What damage did Elon musk do to your country?

You have no idea how much disinformation there is in Brazil. Its basically 24/7 information warfare there, from both sides. I have family there, I was blown away by how aggressive it all was when visiting last year. The only time they tried to do tracking on where these posts and sockpuppets were coming from, they ended up in Israel (this is a common practice, I'm assuming to make tracing and legal action more diffic…

Thanks for some context. Guess I will spend the weekend on the internet reading up on this

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#69

Post by ben_w »

inglor_cz wrote: post #65
ben_w wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true, "reliable" and "fair" don't necessarily have to bend to what foreigners think they should mean. Heck, Americans don't even agree with each other what those things mean in contexts like this.

You won't ever have a common definition thereof, but looking at capital and human movement, a lot more people trust the US than Brazil with their money and lives.

Indeed, though the stuff the judge here is trying to deal with — regardless of any considerations of if they're doing the right thing, just the problem itself — is in part related to making Brazil safer to live in than it was itself previously.

One could reasonably also argue that the drop-off of advertising to X is itself a sign of lack of trust in Musk's decision making process, his rules, and his reliability.

(And he bought Twitter while claiming Twitter's rules were unfair; as you say, no common agreement).

Re: Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

#70

Post by maxglute »

lobocinza wrote: post #67
hkpack wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unelected foreign billionaire as a bonus doesn't force me to pay taxes or force me to use X. I see this sentiment almost everywhere in the world: people rightfully afraid of their own governments and willfully grant influence over their country to the foreign and often enemy state. This is a systems problem with positive feedback loop, which means that whoever wins will have all the influence and control over the p…

You're assuming that the interests of the state are aligned with the interests of the people which is a false premise. The state is a parasitic organism and those in power will always seek their own interests and those of their allies. What liberal democracy achieved is to somewhat bind the interests of the rulers to those of the majority of the population. But this is history as soon as the state starts to control t…

You're assuming a politically active billionaire's interest of a hegemonic country with platforms staffed by "ex" security/intelligence of said country are are aligned with interests of countries they deem adversarial. Like it or not that's why everyone is enamored with the PRC model, because it's simply treasonous to allow the captured interest of a foreign billionair ("seek their own interests and those of their allies" aka Musk and US gov) to dictate your domestic information sphere when interests are not aligned, and going by historic US foreign policy in your region, default hostile.
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