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Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

rachel.fast.ai

61–70 of 202 posts

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#61

I don’t know enough to comment on the Hygiene / Old Friends hypothesis, but anecdotally it seems like almost everyone I know now has an allergy or autoimmune disorder of some sort. After giving birth, my sister suddenly developed something similar to celiac disease (but not quite the same; I don’t think doctors ever figured out exactly what it is) to where she can’t eat grains and a few other types of food as well. I…

Most people aren't actually interested in knowing what's going on. But one can find out. Even if one isn't conspiracy minded, it's quite obvious that oligarchs, their multinational companies and governments couldn't give a single fuck about normal people. PFAS and microplastics everywhere, rises in autoimmune diseases as well as allergies and Alzheimer's. Addictive amounts of sugar in a lot of food. GMOs everywhere u…

> Most people aren't actually interested in knowing what's going on.

I don't necessarily think this is the case, at least the US. It's time consuming and expensive to get testing done without an actual diagnosis, even with healthcare. Taking the time off or spending the money on allergy testing just isn't going to take command of the budget over necessities or more serious healthcare needs.

You're right about the rest of it though, but IMO the systemic issues with money in politics prevents anything from being done about it at the moment, and I don't know what it would take to push the working class into a general strike or revolt.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#62

I'm (genuinely--I don't know enough to pretend this is a knock-down argument) curious how this characterization of "crowd" illnesses fits with reports that Covid was extensively circulating in deer (not known for congregating in indoor spaces with poor ventilation). https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2023/08/29/...

No idea either — but humans tend to exchange less blood than deer (via thickets of ticks).

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#63
> Some people compare the immune system to a muscle

To reiterate something from a recent discussion on air purifiers [0], if your body is a civilization of cells then activating the adaptive immune system is like unleashing Skynet [1] to stop a potential zombie apocalypse.

Even if Skynet reliably wins, you're losing at least a few cities as glowing craters, and each time you're rolling the dice hoping that not too many of the murder-bots go rogue before you can make them self-destruct or go back into storage. You definitely do not want to slam that big red button just because of one police report of a human biting another human, or a report that a bunch of people with green skin are marching down the road, etc.

As we studying the adaptive immune system, we keep discovering safety-interlocks and subtle feedback loops, which presumably evolved because our relatives without them simply tore themselves apart a bit too often.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41347868#41348890

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#64
post #22

My "unpopular opinion" is that in 100 years, people will consider it very strange that most of the population was permanently infected with a bunch of viruses like EBV/HSV/CMV/HPV and nobody cared or did anything about it.

A modern example that is easy to visualize (unlike internal parasites) might be head-lice: There's a reason powdered wigs were very popular a few hundred years ago.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#65
post #8

>We can see that not all obstacles make you stronger. Destroy the cartilage in your knee, and it may never fully recover, since cartilage doesn’t grow back. // I'm not a medic but I recall this being disproven or shown to be at least partially a myth a few years ago - https://physicians.dukehealth.org/articles/humans-have-salam... from 2020, for example. Researchers showed that ankle cartilage is younger than knee- a…

It's long been believed that an ACL rupture requires surgery as the ligament does not have sufficient blood flow to repair on its own. But then a recent study showed that in a significant percentage of people who suffer ACL ruptures and elect not to have surgery the ligament eventually repairs itself on its own.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#66

Very much disagree with the implication that helminths will help very much for these conditions. While not a commonly known treatment in the 'medical sphere' it's is very commonly known in the 'patient community spheres' and from the patient run studies it does not appear to have a particularly strong effect. It does appear to help some people so it's hard to rule it out but that could easily be noise. Those who did…

But the article isn’t implying that. In fact it explicitly says that helminths can be dangerous.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#67

I don’t know enough to comment on the Hygiene / Old Friends hypothesis, but anecdotally it seems like almost everyone I know now has an allergy or autoimmune disorder of some sort. After giving birth, my sister suddenly developed something similar to celiac disease (but not quite the same; I don’t think doctors ever figured out exactly what it is) to where she can’t eat grains and a few other types of food as well. I…

I use to get the flu 1 or 2 times a year. I started going out in more crowded areas, going to pub, etc, and I haven't had a cold or flu in 4 years.

I don't know the article knows as much as they think they do about health, because using muscles also damages them. I been nursing a bicep injury for the last 4 months.

I get its not a prefect analogy, but nothing is, else it would be the same thing

I don't think people should go licking railings, but total avoidance of germs is quite harmful. that's a fact.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#68

I don’t know enough to comment on the Hygiene / Old Friends hypothesis, but anecdotally it seems like almost everyone I know now has an allergy or autoimmune disorder of some sort. After giving birth, my sister suddenly developed something similar to celiac disease (but not quite the same; I don’t think doctors ever figured out exactly what it is) to where she can’t eat grains and a few other types of food as well. I…

Exactly, anecdotes, with a healthy portion of the Availability and Confirmation Heuristics.

We already know that women are more susceptible to auto-immune responses and that pregnancy is one of the reasons for that disparity between the sexes (carrying a foreign invader for 9 months plays with the expression of immunity genes in a manner that occasionally - rarely, at a population level - backfires.) And we know that the risk for an autoimmune "malfunction" rises with age. Thus there will obviously be random clusters of people, with more women who've given birth and and average age that skews older than, say, 30 - to which you unfortunately seem to belong - where there are more autoimmune responses than the average population.

What's funny is that in response to this post there are multiple posts each suggesting their own conspiracy. I wonder if this actually points to something, or it too is a just random noise.

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#69
I prefer the antifragile metaphor.

"The immune system is an example of antifragility in the natural world since an effective response is only produced in the presence of an antigen threat, but the response leaves the body better able to respond in future. The presence of an antigen activates the immune response, which not only deals with the immediate challenge through the innate immune system in the short term and long term through the adaptive immune system but also provides ongoing protection against this and similar future threats through the immunological memory of B cells. In other words, exposure to an invading antigen leaves the body stronger than before, so the stressor has created a benefit that was neither present nor possible before it occurred."

read more: "Beyond resilience: towards antifragility?" https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=13108278257209181...

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And see the -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation

"Variolation was the method of inoculation first used to immunize individuals against smallpox (Variola) with material taken from a patient or a recently variolated individual, in the hope that a mild, but protective, infection would result. Only 1–2% of those variolated died from the intentional infection compared to 30% who contracted smallpox naturally. Variolation is no longer used today. It was replaced by the smallpox vaccine, a safer alternative. This in turn led to the development of the many vaccines now available against other diseases."

Re: Your Immune System Is Not a Muscle

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people can take 14 days of an oral antibiotic without significant long-term adverse consequences. As of 15 years ago, according to my doctor, while on the antibiotic, sacchromyces boulardi is the best probiotic to take to try to minimize the risk of adverse consequences.

Both can be true, antibiotics can cause substantial side effects in some people and most people will be fine. Still sucks if you are not one of those most people.

Yes, it still sucks, but so do uncontrolled chronic bacterial infections.
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