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Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

wsj.com

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Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#61

Post by nuc1e0n »

beloch wrote: post #60
ramblenode wrote: post #31

Unlike many commenters here, I actually read the article, and this quote seems to be the basis for the tenuous link between archeaology and geopolitics suggested by the title: > The extent to which present-day politics hovers over China’s archaeological ambitions became clear during a Wall Street Journal reporter’s encounter with an Uzbek researcher at the ruins of an ancient Kushan city near Chinor. “Tell the Chines…

Archaeology does not take place in a vacuum. It has always been a product of political human beings. Archaeologists are keenly aware of this. Mussolini excavated Pompeii with bulldozers to reveal the past greatness of Italy on a schedule compatible with his ambitions. British archaeologists conducted digs around the globe through the lens of empire. Natives in the Americas, to this day, hesitate to trust archaeologis…

Yep. They also did partial reconstuction work of the great wall in modern times and passed it off as ancient. Similarly, Stonehenge in the UK was also partially reconstructed in the 20th century.

Sensoji temple in Tokyo was also rebuilt to its original design in the 1950s.

The giant stone Buddhas of Afganistan could do with reconstructing IMHO as well.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#62

Post by foobarchu »

nuc1e0n wrote: post #56
Onavo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nippon TV in Japan did a cool TV series adaption of this story that was dubbed into English and shown on kids TV in the UK as 'Monkey', which was quite popular back in the day. Nah, HN readers might be more familiar with its anime adaptation, "Dragon Ball".

Interesting. I've not watched that show and didn't know it's the same story. I know the same graphic artist who worked on the design for the band Gorillaz also did idents based on this story for the Olympics in Beijing a few years back.

It's less an adaptation, more just loosely inspired by journey to the west (disclaimer: I have not read journey to the west)

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#63

Post by meiraleal »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #15

The myth of China being China for millenia is such a propagandist rewrite of history in that region; I hate to see NYT headlines fall for it.

Every place has millenias of history. The countries in the American continent start to count from when they were invaded by Europeans, that's their (our) loss.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#64

Post by peterfirefly »

beloch wrote: post #60
ramblenode wrote: post #31

Unlike many commenters here, I actually read the article, and this quote seems to be the basis for the tenuous link between archeaology and geopolitics suggested by the title: > The extent to which present-day politics hovers over China’s archaeological ambitions became clear during a Wall Street Journal reporter’s encounter with an Uzbek researcher at the ruins of an ancient Kushan city near Chinor. “Tell the Chines…

Archaeology does not take place in a vacuum. It has always been a product of political human beings. Archaeologists are keenly aware of this. Mussolini excavated Pompeii with bulldozers to reveal the past greatness of Italy on a schedule compatible with his ambitions. British archaeologists conducted digs around the globe through the lens of empire. Natives in the Americas, to this day, hesitate to trust archaeologis…

> hesitate to trust archaeologists because they have, far too often, ignored the culture and concerns of descendants while digging up their ancestors.

Or more likely: because they have, far too often, proved the natives wrong and also shown that the people the natives called ancestors weren't... or, if they were, they were also the ancestors of those terrible people from the Evil Enemy Tribe that Nobody Likes.

Natives have political agendas, too.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#65

Post by peterfirefly »

foobarchu wrote: post #62
nuc1e0n wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've not watched that show and didn't know it's the same story. I know the same graphic artist who worked on the design for the band Gorillaz also did idents based on this story for the Olympics in Beijing a few years back.

It's less an adaptation, more just loosely inspired by journey to the west (disclaimer: I have not read journey to the west)

And Journey to the West is a fairly modern book, only a few centuries old. It is based on many older folk tales of China (including many that weren't originally Chinese) and connects them with a framing story, a bit like Decameron or One Thousand and One Nights (Arabian Nights). Some of them had already been connected before the book was written.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#66

Post by nuc1e0n »

peterfirefly wrote: post #64
beloch wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Archaeology does not take place in a vacuum. It has always been a product of political human beings. Archaeologists are keenly aware of this. Mussolini excavated Pompeii with bulldozers to reveal the past greatness of Italy on a schedule compatible with his ambitions. British archaeologists conducted digs around the globe through the lens of empire. Natives in the Americas, to this day, hesitate to trust archaeologis…

> hesitate to trust archaeologists because they have, far too often, ignored the culture and concerns of descendants while digging up their ancestors. Or more likely: because they have, far too often, proved the natives wrong and also shown that the people the natives called ancestors weren't... or, if they were, they were also the ancestors of those terrible people from the Evil Enemy Tribe that Nobody Likes. Native…

What a fabulous comment. I'd upvote it twice if I could. These kind of issues of cultural identity over time are one of the topics in Frank Herbert's Dune series.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#67

Post by hollerith »

meiraleal wrote: post #63
SubiculumCode wrote: post #15

The myth of China being China for millenia is such a propagandist rewrite of history in that region; I hate to see NYT headlines fall for it.

Every place has millenias of history. The countries in the American continent start to count from when they were invaded by Europeans, that's their (our) loss.

>The countries in the American continent start to count from when they were invaded by Europeans

That's because it is hard to learn about pre-Columbian America because we have very little writing from that period -- mainly because they didn't write much down compared to for example how much was recorded in writing by people in China 3,000 years ago.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#68

Post by throwaway48476 »

beloch wrote: post #60
ramblenode wrote: post #31

Unlike many commenters here, I actually read the article, and this quote seems to be the basis for the tenuous link between archeaology and geopolitics suggested by the title: > The extent to which present-day politics hovers over China’s archaeological ambitions became clear during a Wall Street Journal reporter’s encounter with an Uzbek researcher at the ruins of an ancient Kushan city near Chinor. “Tell the Chines…

Archaeology does not take place in a vacuum. It has always been a product of political human beings. Archaeologists are keenly aware of this. Mussolini excavated Pompeii with bulldozers to reveal the past greatness of Italy on a schedule compatible with his ambitions. British archaeologists conducted digs around the globe through the lens of empire. Natives in the Americas, to this day, hesitate to trust archaeologis…

Don't expect them to unravel the mystery of the tocharians.

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#69

Post by soufron »

bugbuddy wrote: post #37
Spivak wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West really isn't winning this one if that's your standard. The Mongol empire which amassed all the wealth, technology and military prowess of China during their expansion destroyed the Arabic world (arguably the most advanced civilization at the time), Russia, and the West they encountered like a bulldozer through wet cardboard. And did so with armies 1/3-1/5 the size of their opponents. We don't really acknowle…

In an alternate timeline, the whole world population look like some mixture of Chinese.

Well the mongols weren't "chinese" to begin with. So...

Re: Chinese archaeologists are striking out along the Silk Road

#70

Post by throwaway48476 »

peterfirefly wrote: post #64
beloch wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Archaeology does not take place in a vacuum. It has always been a product of political human beings. Archaeologists are keenly aware of this. Mussolini excavated Pompeii with bulldozers to reveal the past greatness of Italy on a schedule compatible with his ambitions. British archaeologists conducted digs around the globe through the lens of empire. Natives in the Americas, to this day, hesitate to trust archaeologis…

> hesitate to trust archaeologists because they have, far too often, ignored the culture and concerns of descendants while digging up their ancestors. Or more likely: because they have, far too often, proved the natives wrong and also shown that the people the natives called ancestors weren't... or, if they were, they were also the ancestors of those terrible people from the Evil Enemy Tribe that Nobody Likes. Native…

Their political history also included a lot of slavery.
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