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Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

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Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#61
post #32

The author is putting "upstream" on some weird pedestal. The whole point of foss is that any upstreams have very limited privileges compared to downstreams. > Put in another way, if someone wanted the ability to touch every line of code (in the upstream sense), they would have to be a member of some non trivial amount of communities. On a typical distro you can just download sources and start hacking, you don't need…

>The whole point of foss is that any upstreams have very limited privileges compared to downstreams.

I would say introducing a backdoor (xz) without downstream knowing is probably the biggest "privilege" you can have on a system or distribution no?

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#62
I closely studied plan 9 many times, I unfortunately can't use it because of accessibility issues but from what I read and heard it feels more like a time capsule from the 90s, which is ironic considering it was meant to be a future path for os research. And even in the 90s there were developments in unix that the labs seemingly completely ignored, like DJB's daemon supervision.

To talk about the article itself, the only reason plan 9 can achieve such a design is because it's developed and used by the same small group of people. If linux is a bazaar and BSDs are cathedrals, then 9front is a monastery's citadel. Another thing that isn't mentioned is that both linux and BSD (and pretty much anything based on posix) has a lot of third party software that would be hard to maintain along with the rest of the system, if the monks even include it to begin with. And that software could include something like jq which a lot of software depends on and would love to just assume it's there.

And really, what more does someone get from something like this over, say, having a more or less formal standard on what a true plan9 system includes and waving it in someone's face when they choose to ignore it? This is pretty much what modern unices do and it works out great in cases when it's actually important. Most people don't care what commit your system is built from as long as it works as their programs expect it to.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#63

For the uninitiated, Plan 9 lives on as the filesystem network interface that allows Windows and Windows Subsystem for Linux cross-platform access to your C drive. Via " https://nelsonslog.wordpress.com/2019/06/01/wsl-access-to-li... ": Plan 9’s filesystem is a very simple network filesystem protocol to share files between systems. They are specifically using 9P2000.L. They considered using Samba and SMB instead but…

> Plan 9 lives on as the filesystem network interface that allows Windows and Windows Subsystem for Linux cross-platform access to your C drive.

Same with other hypervisors, virtualbox etc do the same. If you have docker installed on macOS it also uses 9p to share data with the host.

But IMO 9p is a terrible choice for this, particularly because it doesn’t support hard links. It breaks a lot of software like sccache etc which rely on hardlinks to work.

The reply from the plan9 devs on why this is the case hits staggering levels of arrogance:

> If you look at what a hard link is, you'll realize why they are not in Plan 9.

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.plan9/c/24mMVoy6wXA/m/JW...

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#64
I have a strong interest in different OS designs, and Plan 9 is one of the more interesting one. Having said that, it's only place is in a VM - it's not really cut out for everyday use. Pretty sure the people using it as such are doing so just to be 'different' - like BeOS back in the day.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#65

I've played with Plan9 several times, but never used it seriously. The aesthetics that puts me off. Would have been great if they had taken guidance from BeOS / Haiku-OS for the look and feel. Heck, even Windows 95 would have been an improvement.

The UI is called Rio. It’s simple yet functional and the plumbing thing is kinda cool. The thing that irks me with Plan9 (I have tried 9front) is the lack of tab completion on the shell. It’s easy to input garbage on the screen and contrary to most modern shells where you can just skip a line you need to use your mouse to put the cursor back where the prompt is. Of course lots of it might be skill issue.

Ctrl+f for completion, ctrl+b to warp the cursor back to the prompt.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#66
post #32

The author is putting "upstream" on some weird pedestal. The whole point of foss is that any upstreams have very limited privileges compared to downstreams. > Put in another way, if someone wanted the ability to touch every line of code (in the upstream sense), they would have to be a member of some non trivial amount of communities. On a typical distro you can just download sources and start hacking, you don't need…

There is a direct correlation between the amount of power exerted by a project like Debian over an upstream project, and the amount of effort and upkeep required in doing so. I think of this like a sliding scale between shipping things with zero patches and a full on fork. From my understanding distribution patches on top of upstream projects tend to be typically just bug or portability fixes and stop short of adding features. The point I was trying to communicate was that in order to fully interact with the software you either have to be part of the upstream community or essentially fork.

The illustrate how I think Plan 9 is different in this regard. A patch for 9front could include a new feature for our compilers and then also show how useful it is by using it within other parts of our code. In plan 9 you can interact fully with every component.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#67
post #40

Plan9 is one of those things I go back to every Summer and that is somewhere between completely mind-blowing (check out the GIF at https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/09/02/1900 to see how fast it boots in real-time on a single-core Pi) and almost completely unfit for purpose because it just doesn’t integrate well (or easily enough) with modern systems (I also considered using it for a writing “appliance” - https://…

Your link for 9front mentions that ssh2 is not included. This is because the code was rewritten and the program is now just called ssh(1). Other features of ssh are accessible through sshfs(4), and sshnet(4). The only difference in features compared to the original Plan 9 is that 9front does not currently have code for an ssh server. I know some users who are interested in this capability so it'll likely happen at some point.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#68
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perl is less simple. Though, I suppose lua would be a better comparison.

I fail to see your point. To me, these three are all very close to each other in "simplicity" and any ordering seems arguable. If anything, isn't Perl simpler than Python and if not, why? Perhaps vast differences in ergonomics and language-culture-fit but that's orthogonal/unrelated?

The point is that simplicity is an ergonomic consideration, regardless of how you nitpick the analogy.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#69

I closely studied plan 9 many times, I unfortunately can't use it because of accessibility issues but from what I read and heard it feels more like a time capsule from the 90s, which is ironic considering it was meant to be a future path for os research. And even in the 90s there were developments in unix that the labs seemingly completely ignored, like DJB's daemon supervision. To talk about the article itself, the…

I didn't directly mention third party software but when I talk about the various levels of default software the implication is that those with less built in typically rely more heavily on third party software. Even those who do ship a more batteries included base still have to provide mechanisms for using third party software given the ecosystem.

> ... has a lot of third party software that would be hard to maintain along with the rest of the system

This is the point that the article is trying to challenge. I think 9front proves that it's doable.

> Most people don't care what commit your system is built from as long as it works as their programs expect it to.

The former helps the later a lot. Everything is tested with each other and for a lot of functionality there is only one option.

Re: Plan 9 is a uniquely complete operating system

#70

For the uninitiated, Plan 9 lives on as the filesystem network interface that allows Windows and Windows Subsystem for Linux cross-platform access to your C drive. Via " https://nelsonslog.wordpress.com/2019/06/01/wsl-access-to-li... ": Plan 9’s filesystem is a very simple network filesystem protocol to share files between systems. They are specifically using 9P2000.L. They considered using Samba and SMB instead but…

> Plan 9 lives on as the filesystem network interface that allows Windows and Windows Subsystem for Linux cross-platform access to your C drive. Same with other hypervisors, virtualbox etc do the same. If you have docker installed on macOS it also uses 9p to share data with the host. But IMO 9p is a terrible choice for this, particularly because it doesn’t support hard links. It breaks a lot of software like sccache…

I can accept that someone considers a hard link a sort of insanity or deliberate corruption, or at best an undesirable feature, but I think they should just say that rather than go to the next level and act like this is the only possible position.
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