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UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

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61–70 of 141 posts

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#61
post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

Unless you can provide some hard figures, that number is probably not really accurate. I'd say an insane amount of effort would go into all the things around growing food. I've grown food and built houses and I can tell you, both things required a LOT of work, and if you want to do it efficiently, you need a LOT of good material and tech. None of that stuff falls out of trees. Ask Russians who are now under sanctions…

I'd argue that the labor required for growing food and building houses is highly dependent on the scale you are trying to achieve.

Raising enough food for a small family is very doable when you don't spend 40+ hours per week working for the paycheck. Building a small house is definitely a big project, but very doable as long as you aren't attempting to wind the clock all the way back and milling your own lumber. It can be done with a surprisingly small set of tools if the house is reasonably sized and designed with your tools and skills in mind from the beginning.

Is the average person going to build their own 2,500 square foot two-story house and grow enough food to feed everyone? Obviously not. But could a person build a 900 sq ft ranch, have a garden feeding their family, and raise animals for their own meat, dairy, and eggs? They absolutely can, I'm doing it today, and if climate change concerns you the reduced impact on the environment is huge.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#62
post #10

So this explanation is neat and tidy. The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate. So they start demanding exorbitant wages, show up late, if at all. This is productive work, and productive work that frees higher skilled resources to be more productive. Based on the employers explaining this problem,…

> The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate.

We've uh, we've known this for millennia. "When no longer required to do something that they hate, people will often choose to stop doing that hated thing." is not even a little bit surprising.

> ...and have to connect meaning for the employee to the work they need done.

Nah. Most folks don't give a shit about whether or not their work has "meaning". They work to fund their hobbies and fun, they don't work to find "meaning". Terminally-management-brained middle managers sure THINK that it's important for rank-and-file people to understand that their work has "meaning", though. They can't fuckin seem to shut up about it.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#63
post #9
post #5

Doesn't UBI equate to lowering the prices for everything? Isn't it more feasible to pursue the latter?

The US doesn't have a centrally planned economy, so the government can't lower the prices of everything. UBI is much more feasible to implement than communism.

Not centrally planned, except the humongous federal government, the central bank, the interstate highway system, even things like corn subsidies. There are a lot of centrally-planned areas.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#64
post #10

So this explanation is neat and tidy. The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate. So they start demanding exorbitant wages, show up late, if at all. This is productive work, and productive work that frees higher skilled resources to be more productive. Based on the employers explaining this problem,…

> The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate. We've uh, we've known this for millennia. "When no longer required to do something that they hate, people will often choose to stop doing that hated thing." is not even a little bit surprising. > ...and have to connect meaning for the employee to the wor…

That's not my experience at all. Most people I know and have worked with care a lot about if their work has meaning. The people who do not are the outliers.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#65
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. That's fair and totally 1000% reasonable. However: What if (whether through sudden injury or the accumulated injuries of aging) you become utterly unable to work, you've burned through your savings, all your family is dead, and you're an unlikable cunt [0] so those around you are supremely disinclined to provide assi…

That's a welfare argument, not really relevant to UBI.

> That's a welfare argument, not really relevant to UBI.

UBI is welfare.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#66
post #22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want to guarantee for every human on the planet the right to food, water, shelter, health care, and education. Giving everyone enough money to buy all those things themselves is one way to do it. Raising funds (taxes) and then providing those services for free is another way. It doesn’t really matter which way. What matters is that we agree on that goal and find some way to achieve it. Right now we have a system w…

We want to guarantee for every human on the planet the right to food, water, shelter, health care, and education. ... What matters is that we agree on that goal and find some way to achieve it. Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. Second, the value, even to the end recipient, of vast majority of educati…

> Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage.

Do you expect them to respect your right to have those things? IMO, your line of thought leads to violent revolution.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. A government that governs a nation is arguably responsible for every human in it.

This is the core of so many problems in western governments today. Governments should be there to coordinate complex problems that society doesn't have a better way to handle. Governments should not be there to be a responsible parent to everyone, whether they want it or not.

What do you think happens to the wealthy when the government does not ensure the majority of people are well fed and secure?

Does the mob respect property rights?

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate. We've uh, we've known this for millennia. "When no longer required to do something that they hate, people will often choose to stop doing that hated thing." is not even a little bit surprising. > ...and have to connect meaning for the employee to the wor…

That's not my experience at all. Most people I know and have worked with care a lot about if their work has meaning. The people who do not are the outliers.

So, most people you know live to work, rather than work to live? Just out of curiosity, are most people you know what would generally be called in the US "white-collar" workers?

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#69
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally any economic decision is reallocated resources, that term is much too broad to be meaningful. Are you arguing that a UBI is wealth redistribution specifically? Someone will try it, totally agree there. I don't see any problem with that either, countries should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. I wouldn't tell France they shouldn't try it, but I am absolutely saying I don't…

> Are you arguing that a UBI is wealth redistribution specifically? I’m saying social safety nets are already wealth redistribution. Changing the form of that safety net to UBI is an allocation of resources based on individual decisions and thus free markets where Food Stamps/Housing Subsidies/etc is allocating money based on bureaucratic decisions. Basically nothing says UBI needs to cost more than existing social s…

Social safety nets today are needed weslth distribution. A UBI needs to cover everyone. With the same funding a UBI would have to provide less benefit than the programs we have today.

That said, my argument against a UBI isn't even that it's too expensive. Anyone claiming that a UBI will be too expensive is falling into the same trap those arguing for a UBI fall into. The impact when making such a massive change to our social and economic system is impossible to accurately model and predict. The OP author actually seems to agree with this by pointing out that a UBI program can't be tested. Oddly, though, the author's solution to that is to YOLO a UBI program into our entire country without being able to understand what the likely impacts will be.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#70
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the network effect of mass messaging —- is what the article means by unpilotable.

The network effect of mass messaging was tested at smaller scales many times. Victorian era pneumatic tubes come to mind or unlimited local calls later, but there must be countless other examples that did not require changing the economy as a whole .

but is changing the economy as a whole a fair characterization of UBI?

That’s a disservice to the existing complexity of modern economies.

Valid arguments not downvoted pls

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