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July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

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61–70 of 216 posts

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#61
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/theslowwinte...

"Unfortunately for John, the branches made a pact with Satan and quantum mechanics [...] In exchange for their last remaining bits of entropy, the branches cast evil spells on future genera- tions of processors. Those evil spells had names like “scaling- induced voltage leaks” and “increasing levels of waste heat” [...] the branches, those vanquished foes from long ago, would have the last laugh."

"John was terrified by the collapse of the parallelism bubble, and he quickly discarded his plans for a 743-core processor that was dubbed The Hydra of Destiny and whose abstract Platonic ideal was briefly the third-best chess player in Gary, Indiana. Clutching a bottle of whiskey in one hand and a shot- gun in the other, John scoured the research literature for ideas that might save his dreams of infinite scaling. He discovered several papers that described software-assisted hardware recovery. The basic idea was simple: if hardware suffers more transient failures as it gets smaller, why not allow software to detect erroneous computations and re-execute them? This idea seemed promising until John realized THAT IT WAS THE WORST IDEA EVER. Modern software barely works when the hardware is correct, so relying on software to correct hardware errors is like asking Godzilla to prevent Mega-Godzilla from terrorizing Japan. THIS DOES NOT LEAD TO RISING PROP- ERTY VALUES IN TOKYO. It’s better to stop scaling your transistors and avoid playing with monsters in the first place, instead of devising an elaborate series of monster checks- and-balances and then hoping that the monsters don’t do what monsters are always going to do because if they didn’t do those things, they’d be called dandelions or puppy hugs."

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#62

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/theslowwinte... "Unfortunately for John, the branches made a pact with Satan and quantum mechanics [...] In exchange for their last remaining bits of entropy, the branches cast evil spells on future genera- tions of processors. Those evil spells had names like “scaling- induced voltage leaks” and “increasing levels of waste heat” [...] the branches, those vanquished foe…

I haven't read this piece before but I just knew it was going to be written by Mickens about halfway through your comment.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#63
post #14

Curious why Intel announced this on their community forums, rather than somewhere more official.

That’s probably where people are mostly likely to understand it. A lot of companies do this, especially while they’re still learning things.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#64
post #12
post #7

Are the CPUs that received elevated operating voltage permanently damaged?

This is the most pressing question. If it was just a microcode issue a cooloff and power cycle ought to at least reset things but according to Wendel from Level 1 Tech, that doesn't seem to always be the case.

The problem is that running at too high of a voltage for sustained periods can cause physical degradation of the chip in some cases. Hopefully not here!

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#65
post #60
post #4

Remains to be seen how the microcode patch affects performance, and how these CPUs that have been affected by over-voltage to the point of instability will have aged in 6 months, or a few years from now. More voltage generally improves stability, because there is more slack to close timing. Instability with high voltage suggests dangerous levels. A software patch can lower the voltage from this point on, but it can't…

I was recently looking at building and buying a couple systems. I've always liked Intel. I went AMD this time. It seemed like the base frequencies vs boost frequencies were much farther apart on Intel than with most of the AMDs. This was especially true on the laptops were cooling is a larger concern. So I suspect they were pushing limits. Also, the performance core vs efficiency core stuff seemed kind of gimmicky wi…

> It seems AMD had an issue supporting ECC with the current chipsets.

AMD has the advantage with regards to ECC. Intel doesn't support ECC at all on consumer chips, you need to go Xeon. AMD supports it on all chips, but it is up to the motherboard vendor to (correctly) implement. You can get consumer-class AM4/5 boards that have ECC support.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#66
post #18

So on one hand they are saying it's voltage (i.e. something external, not their fault, bad mainboard manufacturers!). On the other hand they are saying they will fix it in microcode. How is that even possible? Are they saying that their CPUs are signaling the mainboards to give them too much voltage? Can someone make sense of this? It reminds me of Steve Jobs' You Are Holding It Wrong moment.

My guess is something like the following: Modern CPU's are incredibly complex machines with a ridiculously large amount of possible configuration states (too large to exhaustively test after manufacture or sim during design), e.g. a vector multiply in flight with an AES encode in flight with x87 sincos, etc. Each operation is going to draw a certain amount of current. It is impractical to guarantee each functional un…

It's worse than that, thermal management is part of the puzzle. Think of that as heat generation happening across three dimensions (X + Y + time) along with diffusion in 3D through the package.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#68
post #60
post #4

Remains to be seen how the microcode patch affects performance, and how these CPUs that have been affected by over-voltage to the point of instability will have aged in 6 months, or a few years from now. More voltage generally improves stability, because there is more slack to close timing. Instability with high voltage suggests dangerous levels. A software patch can lower the voltage from this point on, but it can't…

I was recently looking at building and buying a couple systems. I've always liked Intel. I went AMD this time. It seemed like the base frequencies vs boost frequencies were much farther apart on Intel than with most of the AMDs. This was especially true on the laptops were cooling is a larger concern. So I suspect they were pushing limits. Also, the performance core vs efficiency core stuff seemed kind of gimmicky wi…

More E-core is reasonable for multi threaded application performance. It's efficient for power and die area as the name indicates, so they can implement more E-cores than P-cores for the same power/area budget. It's not suitable for who need many single threaded performance cores like VM server, but I don't know is there any major consumer usage requires such performance.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#69
post #60
post #4

Remains to be seen how the microcode patch affects performance, and how these CPUs that have been affected by over-voltage to the point of instability will have aged in 6 months, or a few years from now. More voltage generally improves stability, because there is more slack to close timing. Instability with high voltage suggests dangerous levels. A software patch can lower the voltage from this point on, but it can't…

I was recently looking at building and buying a couple systems. I've always liked Intel. I went AMD this time. It seemed like the base frequencies vs boost frequencies were much farther apart on Intel than with most of the AMDs. This was especially true on the laptops were cooling is a larger concern. So I suspect they were pushing limits. Also, the performance core vs efficiency core stuff seemed kind of gimmicky wi…

> so few performance cores and so many efficiency cores

I was baffled by this too but what they don't make clear is the performance cores have hyperthreading the efficiency cores do not.

So what they call 2P+4E actually becomes an 8 core system as far as something like /proc/cpuinfo is concerned. They're also the same architecture so code compiled for a particular architecture will run on either core set and can be moved from one to the other as the scheduler dictates.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was recently looking at building and buying a couple systems. I've always liked Intel. I went AMD this time. It seemed like the base frequencies vs boost frequencies were much farther apart on Intel than with most of the AMDs. This was especially true on the laptops were cooling is a larger concern. So I suspect they were pushing limits. Also, the performance core vs efficiency core stuff seemed kind of gimmicky wi…

> It seems AMD had an issue supporting ECC with the current chipsets. AMD has the advantage with regards to ECC. Intel doesn't support ECC at all on consumer chips, you need to go Xeon. AMD supports it on all chips, but it is up to the motherboard vendor to (correctly) implement. You can get consumer-class AM4/5 boards that have ECC support.

Actually some of the 13th and 14th gen Intel Core processors support ECC.
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