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Human history in the very long run (2021)

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Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#61
Friendship ended with Fascist Hacker News, now Primitivist Hacker News is my best friend /s

>It’s commonplace to refer to the slower productivity growth since 1970 as a “stagnation” relative to the 1870-1970 pace, but the 1970-2020 period still features more per capita growth in a 50-year span than was typical in human history. Much more growth. So what’s really the anomaly here?

Energy. All the boons of the Industrial Revolution are downstream of the ability to harness and utilize large amount of energy for productive human purposes.

The 1970s was when Saudi Arabia shut off the flow of cheap oil to the US; I would argue that we never actually recovered from this. We certainly got better at placating Middle Eastern elites enough to keep the oil flowing, but gas prices are still insane relative to pre-crisis levels, especially for a country which built so much car infrastructure[0] that the price of oil is a headline political concern.

This is why I'm bullish on solar, BTW. It's better to have SOME energy, even if it's only daytime, than none at all if the Middle East decides it wants to veto the US again.

>The social media experiment in “connecting people” is in some ways weirder and more contrary to history than I think we sometimes appreciate; until very recently, almost everyone was living in small towns.

Dunbar's Number is the cap on close friendships a human can have. The number 200 is bandied about but I don't think the value matters. What matters is that people continue to organize themselves around this number, and social organizations larger than it tend to either lose meaningfulness or grow deep states[1] that tend to make all the actual decisions.

>Human history is kind of bleak. There’s a lot of talk these days about the “dark parts of our country’s history” and how to think about them. But I’m not really sure we’ve had a conversation about the generally dark trajectory of all this history in general, which seems broadly lacking in uplifting themes about progress until suddenly it’s not.

You want to know what would be even bleaker? Going back to hunter-gatherer societies[2]. Humanity did not adopt agriculture by choice; nor did roving gangs of thieves and self-appointed protectors force people to put seeds into the ground and wait for food to sprout out. Resource exhaustion did. The Earth's carrying capacity for hunter-gatherers is comically low; agriculture spread as hungry humans overhunted and overgathered until it was necessary to intentionally plant and grow energy rather than just rely on the Earth to store it in a form we can naturally digest.

>The whole idea of trying to invent new ways of doing things seems to be perhaps more novel than you’d think. People were flaking stones the same old, same old way for unimaginably long spans of time.

Human progress is a superexponential (arguably, superlogistic) curve. Educated[3] individuals are more likely to produce inventions, more educated people produce more inventions, but agricultural societies eat their own seed corn by treating education as something to be kept to the elites.

[0] And KEEPS building car infrastructure, despite the risk being known for the last 50 years

[1] In the "Tyranny of Structurelessness" sense

[2] That joke about primitivists at the start was foreshadowing.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#62
> there’s this new class of people who don’t grow the food and just take stuff

Pretty good summary of the latest "tech" business models as well :-)

The question is: why does this happen? Why do the many typically fail to limit how exploitative the few?

People usually seek answers in morality (or the lack thereof) but morality is a complex emergent phenomenon that is always "too little, too late".

One fundamental factor seems to be the difficulty of communicating and coordinating large numbers of people: The slow diffusion of technical knowledge means a gang of bandits with superior weapons can control an empire. Ineffective general education means vast human potential is wasted and accepts being raw material for stratified societies. Controlling message transmission and obfuscating the state of the world means people live in ignorance and manufactured realities which in turn makes them much easier to exploit.

An interesting question is whether digital technology with its various extraordinary efficiencies and exponential capacities will ever help mitigate the fundamental flaws of large human societies.

Idealistic hopes in this direction by tech visionaries have been promptly crushed, but what is important is indeed the long run effect.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I strongly suspect any example I provide will be attacked, so I recommend to use your imagination. I think you can do better than this. If you really want an example I recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's Shaman , who can write better than I can, who is thoughtful in his choice in how he uses research versus poetic license, who has already responded to critique on…

I assume that it is nothing if you can't provide any examples. Slaves, blood sports, women traded for power and sex are all the things that first came to mind Edit: It's also bad form to edit your comment after it's been replied to without indicating you edited it.

There is a big question with Slavery and Sex trade. UN estimates about 50 million people today but I have seen some figures that put it closer to 280 million.

https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav...

Depending on if you are going by total numbers or a percentage of the population can sway the messaging on this wildly.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#64
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

I can only speak for myself, but knowing where my food came from makes me extremely happy and thats something that we have largely lost today. I spent about a year raising two hogs, babying them when compared to how almost anyone raises pigs. They loved their lives, I know exactly what they ate, and I know exactly what their last moments were. I just started curing another round of bacon a couple days ago, and when I…

While I don't eat meat for various reasons, I always appreciate homesteaders.

To ensure that the creatures they shepherd have as few bad moments as possible. To have hogs and to know they will only have one bad day.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking from a US perspective, a lot of people have lost their connection to society and to a sense of meaningful cultural identity. There's a crisis of singleness that hasn't been present in much, although not all, of human history. Home ownership is way down. At various points throughout human history it was common for people to own their own homes. Most people have very little autonomy in their day to day work. I…

John Michael Greer has a great term for this. Lenocracy. The first part of that word comes from leno, the Latin term for a pimp. https://www.ecosophia.net/beyond-lenocracy/ Like most of Greers writing, it makes you think and also wonder what is in the water at his house.

Interesting to find the author focus almost entirely on the public sector aspect of this. When I read the definition, my mind went immediately to the private sector and how almost every startup or big tech success story is chasing the ideal of being a pimp.

The service economy is all about taking a whopping cut of everyone else's work, and it seems like venture capital is only interested in funding companies who will be able to do that. Uber, Doordash, Task Rabbit, the App Store, etc.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#66
post #60
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

Not the OP, but we lost the spirit of community. We’ve got way over board when promoting individualism as a way of life.

I suspect that as energy per capita goes up, the direct reliance on immediate others goes down. Paradoxically because there is now so many other people you can depend on to provide goods and services. If the supply drops, this trend will go in reverse. Probably would be very messy on the way down however.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#67

Is there any writer who criticizes Marx on his own terms? Marx agreed that quality of life can improve under capitalism. The whole point was a ethical/social critique of mismatched incentives and power imbalances of such an arrangement. It doesn't matter if life improves if the only choices one has in life is either live under the power imbalance of wage labor or extract value from those who do. If folks can be blame…

I'm very much not a Marxist, but I think he is remarkably undervalued for his analysis of capitalism, particularly how specialization inherently leads to meaninglessness, the dissolution of family and social structures etc. His plans for how to address the shortcomings of capitalism are, um, flawed. But the analysis itself is incredibly insightful.

There was a saying in the ruins of the USSR. Marx was completely right about Capitalism and completely wrong about Communism.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#68

Friendship ended with Fascist Hacker News, now Primitivist Hacker News is my best friend /s >It’s commonplace to refer to the slower productivity growth since 1970 as a “stagnation” relative to the 1870-1970 pace, but the 1970-2020 period still features more per capita growth in a 50-year span than was typical in human history. Much more growth. So what’s really the anomaly here? Energy. All the boons of the Industri…

>This is why I'm bullish on solar, BTW. It's better to have SOME energy, even if it's only daytime, than none at all if the Middle East decides it wants to veto the US again.

Having worked with solar for a long while, I am always trying to tame people expectations of it. I think that and most renewables are awesome but we are trying to make them match the societal paradigm of fossil fuels and I think that is a fools errand.

We are going to go to a green energy grid eventually (fossil fuels are limited) and it will mostly likely have a lower total energy per capita than what we have today. Combine this with technology innovations, personal reductions in demand and the end result won't be so bad. It isn't going to be a dystopia but I don't think we will be living the same level of today's abundance.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vastly overwhelming body of evidence clearly indicates that today humanity is materially and by nearly all concrete measurements of human well-being better off than at any time in all its long history. This paints a powerful case for humanity also being psychologically and emotionally better off, on average, than at any older time in history since, as should be obvious, dodging starvation, random war, plague and…

Speaking from a US perspective, a lot of people have lost their connection to society and to a sense of meaningful cultural identity. There's a crisis of singleness that hasn't been present in much, although not all, of human history. Home ownership is way down. At various points throughout human history it was common for people to own their own homes. Most people have very little autonomy in their day to day work. I…

>Speaking from a US perspective, a lot of people have lost their connection to society and to a sense of meaningful cultural identity.

Aside from this being one hell of a subjective thing to measure vs. the past, and aside from it not necessarily being a bad thing (cultural identity has been used for centuries by demagogues to foment grotesque acts of religious and political violence, compared to what you see in many modern pluralistic liberal societies), it's also a very minor thing compared to all the colossal negatives of life in the past.

We can find our own voluntary cultural associations and create connections to society in all sorts of ways. Modern living, modern technology and modern conveniences don't hinder this. If anything, they make it easier. In a ridiculous irony considering the occupations of so many people on HN, and their lifestyles, there's a lot of hypocritical hate for social media and digital connectivity, but one part of it that's unfounded is the idea that it can't be used by those who are creative for expanding their own personally chosen connections to certain communities more widely.

As for the crisis of singleness, that's more complex, but maybe no longer forcing younger people into marriages of convenience and religious prudery about how the neighbors might be "scandalized" has something to do with fewer marriages. I see little wrong with that. The society I live in pursues marriage less than at any time in its history, but at least today you see nowhere near the frequency of young men and women being shotgunned into youthful marriages for absurd religious and social reasons that later lead to those marriages being abusive, unhappy and stagnant.

I agree with worries about your point on home ownership, but like anything else, it too has its caveats and complexities. One of these being that many younger people want to live in places that are trendy but also own their own property there. Market pricing for high-demand areas isn't something that can be magically wished away.

Finally, >Most people have very little autonomy in their day to day work. In the past most people worked on small scale farms and cottage industries where they didn't have layers upon layers of middle managers micromanaging them.

I'm sorry, have you actually read about how many hours people working in cottage industries and farming in particular (what the vast majority of people did for a living before industrialization) had to pull off just to stay afloat? I'd be willing to bet that they'd pick shorter hours with a manager or two over that existence.

On the other hand, the amount of autonomy and freedom an average modern person in the developed world today has is vastly greater than it was in this past existence you seem to be idealizing without closer examination. This applies even if you include all the middle managers you like over this modern worker's head. This is the case because, very importantly, it's their free time outside of work that matters most.

It's incredible to think a 17th century farmer of mid 19th century cobbler had more autonomy than a modern white collar worker in, say, Pittsburg, or Oakland California or Lyon, France does today just because you don't like the management culture in which the modern workers work their relatively moderate hours.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#70

Friendship ended with Fascist Hacker News, now Primitivist Hacker News is my best friend /s >It’s commonplace to refer to the slower productivity growth since 1970 as a “stagnation” relative to the 1870-1970 pace, but the 1970-2020 period still features more per capita growth in a 50-year span than was typical in human history. Much more growth. So what’s really the anomaly here? Energy. All the boons of the Industri…

>This is why I'm bullish on solar, BTW. It's better to have SOME energy, even if it's only daytime, than none at all if the Middle East decides it wants to veto the US again. Having worked with solar for a long while, I am always trying to tame people expectations of it. I think that and most renewables are awesome but we are trying to make them match the societal paradigm of fossil fuels and I think that is a fools…

> I don't think we will be living the same level of today's abundance.

I don't think we will be living the same level of today's waste.

Already per capita energy consumption has ceased to grow in countries such as the US and elsewhere, this is due to better effeciences in energy use.

It's not just solar, across the board there is more and more research on better ways to make hydrogen from water, better ways to make cement, battery chemistry not just for cars (cheaper but much heavier batteries per kWh are suited to grid storage), improvements on steel making, etc (it's a long list).

It's not crazy to imagine lower per capita energy consumption and an increase in goods and living standards for more people.

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