My meta-takeaway is that it behooves* the industry to further standardize on the interfaces between components. That will increase repairability over time when coupled with the correct legislation. *Based on the current OEM/supplier relationship, network of repair shops, etc. All of the post sales businesses built up to support the initial sale.
America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
61–67 of 67 posts
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
>What they are doing is buying the vehicle using company funds as company equipment and then writing it down as a loss on their Income/Loss sheet. There's nothing wrong with it and you should do so for any company purchases. I think the "fraud" comes from the fact that they use it for personal purposes but fail to declare it on their income tax returns as they should[1]. For the typical case of a general contractor o…
I believe the argument is generally that they are advertising for the business whenever driving a company vehicle with logos on it. As the GP said, the line is very unclear for small businesses. It isn't technically fraud, though, if our current laws allow it. Fight to change the laws if you want to, but until then it can't be fraud.
The linked IRS document specifically says
>For example, a pickup truck qualifies if it is clearly marked with permanently affixed decals, special painting, or other advertising associated with your trade, business, or function and meets either of the following requirements.
(emphasis mine)
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is with the used car market is that maintenance cost is not paid by all the owners. Its paid only by who happens to be holding the hot potato when the battery is screwed, and most people with means aren't holding a car to 150k miles, that's about how many miles an ICE car has in the maybe $5kish used range. The sort of person buying a $5k car can't afford a $10k battery. They might not have access to $10k o…
I feel like the battery cost issue is being hand-waved by too many people here. For most people driving a car with well over 100k miles, spending $10k to replace a battery is a total non-starter. In addition to batteries degrading, there's also the risk of an accident. Some crashes that would be fixable for an older ICE car will require replacing the battery in an EV at a cost far greater than the car would be worth,…
Well do the math with prices instead of miles.
If you think you need to replace the battery soon, and the EV is $8k cheaper, it's a tempting purchase. Just don't spend the $8k on something else.
If that's impossible because the battery car would have to go below free, then that could be a problem. But that's still way cheaper than EVs are right now. I wish we had that problem! And at that point in the future, the fix is cheaper batteries, and it will happen.
> Some crashes that would be fixable for an older ICE car will require replacing the battery in an EV at a cost far greater than the car would be worth, making it non-viable. The battery is a risk factor that many people already worried about their finances won't want to take on.
I don't think the difference between "4% chance it's totalled in the next few years" and "5% chance it's totalled in the next few years" is a deal breaker. And that math is affected by so many other model-specific things too...
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#64> Joe Biden’s climate agenda is all about new-EV sales. The unstated bit is American new-EV sales. > Electric vehicles made up about 8 percent of new car sales in the United States last year, compared with more than a quarter in China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less. Except, we've also made those unaffordable by > Biden has quadrupled tariffs on electric vehicles from China — from 25% to an eye-wateri…
That said, my own policy would result in even more extreme trade restrictions for completely different reasons.
I think it is absurd to impose extensive regulations on some players but not all players. It makes no sense to me that I can walk or click into a store where two identical products are offered but the rules imposed on each producer are so different. One is regulated in the age of employees, the safety requirements for employees, the working conditions of employees, environmental protections, and so forth. The other is allowed to ignore all those considerations. When the US government imposes all those regulations on US players it is essentially making a rule that US companies are not allowed to compete.
I think that USians like to complain about government interference but actually support most of the restrictions they suffer. They don't want to see 10-year-olds in factories, or toxic effluent flowing into waterways. We may not all agree on all the regulations but we generally agree on most of them. Yet we are not willing to impose those restrictions across the board on all participants in US markets.
A company that plays by USA rules inside the USA cannot escape the costs imposed by those rules. So two identical products show up on the same shelf with drastically different price tags. It's no surprise that the higher-priced item does not sell. So if you want to sell your products inside the USA you are forced to move your production outside the USA and damage the labor force and ecology of some other part of the world.
There are two obvious alternatives to the existing status quo. One is to remove restrictions from producers within the USA. I do not advocate for this and don't think most USians would tolerate this. The other obvious choice is to impose USA regulations on the production of any product sold inside the USA. I do advocate for this but I don't think most USians would tolerate this either. The obvious effect on prices would be untenable for most USians. It would be political suicide to support such an action.
Yet, as the parent comment highlights, we see arbitrary trade restrictions for politically powerful industries despite the effect on prices. Clever appeals to nationalism and other hideous ideologies can sometimes produce public support for good policies for terribly wrong reasons.
In the case of EVs you have a very interesting conflict of choosing to allow irresponsible companies to do irresponsible things in order to create cheaper products that might save the environment. Or do you force companies to be environmentally responsible even if it makes environmentally safer products more expensive. (This ignores, of course, the whole debate about whether EVs are, in fact, environmentally safer. It also ignores other price factors like labor which might have a greater effect on prices than environmental protections. But it makes interesting conversation.)
If a non-USA producer can play by the same environmental protections and most of the same labor protections as the USA producers and still put a less expensive product on store shelves in the USA, I don't mind allowing their product into the USA. Of course, if that ever came to be the general case we could start worrying about the rest of those labor rules. But right now we are so far away from a level playing field that an abrupt leveling would cause too great of a shock. I wonder if USians could agree on what constitutes low-hanging fruit in any effort to level the playing field.
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's something worth nothing, but most of that is unrelated to the battery, and I don't see how it has anything to do with the rest of this comment thread.
I suspect a lot of that depreciation has to do with the battery life and replacement cost. For the current used market it's pretty drastic. I'm not sure if it's just a flooded market, a fad ending, people just don't like EV's after owning them, Tesla cutting prices, or what. Perhaps some of all of that. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/poor-resale-values-of-evs-ar... Edit: A recent study from iSeeCars.com showed the a…
You say that the average price of a used EV fell more than the average price of a used ICE as if that was a bad thing. But you do not tell us the corresponding statistic for prices of new vehicles. What if the average price of new EVs fell 50% but the average price of used EVs fell 31.8% while the average price of new ICEs rose 25% and the average price of used ICEs fell 3.6%?
In general I would consider lower EV prices to be a positive development. Your barage of numbers seems aimed at confusing the issue. Can you provide more clarity?
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#66https://archive.is/96yi1 I feel what this article fails to mention is how the depreciation of EVs compares to depreciation of gas cars. Apparently, based on google searches, cars depreciate 15% when driven off the lot, and then a further 15% per year after that. So it looks like EVs are depreciating quicker. This would definitely be a good deal, as they also have lower operating costs.
I'm really curious to see how the used market shakes out when it becomes time to play hot potato with the inevitable battery array replacement. Gas cars need work to but that work is less costly and they can take a whole lot of neglect.
Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs
#67> Joe Biden’s climate agenda is all about new-EV sales. The unstated bit is American new-EV sales. > Electric vehicles made up about 8 percent of new car sales in the United States last year, compared with more than a quarter in China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less. Except, we've also made those unaffordable by > Biden has quadrupled tariffs on electric vehicles from China — from 25% to an eye-wateri…
Protectionism in general tends to irritate me. The kind of political nonsense exposed by the parent comment is particularly frustrating for me. That said, my own policy would result in even more extreme trade restrictions for completely different reasons. I think it is absurd to impose extensive regulations on some players but not all players. It makes no sense to me that I can walk or click into a store where two id…