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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#61

Post by archerx »

constantcrying wrote: post #36
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#62

Post by kortilla »

kalleboo wrote: post #47
hdesh wrote: post #4

I wonder if the outcome would have been any different if the 737 MAX crashes had happened on the American soil and involved loss of American lives.

Even on Hacker News I saw lots of comments blaming the pilots and saying a similar accident would be impossible with U.S.-trained pilots.

It would not have been possible on any pilot (not up just US) trained on the auto stab trim. The mistake people made earlier was assuming that Boeing made this new critical piece a critically called out training area.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#63

Post by davedx »

iSnow wrote: post #37
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You have to get the leadership by the balls. The CEO isn't going to change a company's culture alone, but she has leverage and connections. If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue. That ensures that even activist shareholders take note and do not pressure the CEO to cut corne…

The C-level people have already failed catastrophically, they need replacing wholesale. This is done frequently as other corporate actions like M&A's or bankruptcies. There are specialists whose entire career is dedicated to being temporary CEO's. They are out there. They should be used at Boeing.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#64

Post by lordnacho »

archerx wrote: post #61
constantcrying wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

Yeah, this is key. I don't see why the system shouldn't be set up that way. Company does something criminal, now boss is considered a criminal.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#65

Post by immibis »

lupusreal wrote: post #58
constantcrying wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

How do you even "change management culture" without punishing people who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies the sort of management culture you're trying to stamp out? If you limit yourself to firing/prosecuting the specific managers that committed fraud/etc this time nothing will change because those guys only existed in the org and operated that way because of the broader management co…

"How do you eliminate fraud from a company without punishing managers who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies a management culture that promotes fraud?"

Idk, doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#66

Post by lupusreal »

cycomanic wrote: post #54
constantcrying wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. It is completely ridiculous to criminally prosecute leadership for crimes which happened without their knowing/consent/acknowledgment. It would be a perversion of justice to jail someone because many levels down someone else committed a crime. The best corporate culture does not prevent…

Well what are the ridiculously high salaries for if they don't even take responsibility. I mean parents are liable for their children, so why should a CEO not be made responsible for the culture of the corporation underneath them?

Parents are generally not criminally liable for the crimes their kids commit. They might catch some related negligence charges or something, but if little Jimmy decides to rob a 7-11 his mom doesn't get sent to prison for armed robbery.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#67

Post by immibis »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #32
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

The U.S. is not going to shut down Boeing. How many jobs would be lost if that happened, especially in this economy? The fine is quite low.

The US has propped up Boeing, because it's primarily a military contractor.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#68

Post by Sakos »

immibis wrote: post #65
lupusreal wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you even "change management culture" without punishing people who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies the sort of management culture you're trying to stamp out? If you limit yourself to firing/prosecuting the specific managers that committed fraud/etc this time nothing will change because those guys only existed in the org and operated that way because of the broader management co…

"How do you eliminate fraud from a company without punishing managers who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies a management culture that promotes fraud?" Idk, doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Agree. Seems like great incentive for the next replacement manager to not turn a blind eye or be willfully ignorant like it's not their problem.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#69

Post by immibis »

potsandpans wrote: post #12
everyone wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the purpose of creating a corporation.

To commit criminal fraud with impunity?

Kind of, yes. The legal purpose of a corporate structure is that the corporation is a liability shield for the people in it.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#70

Post by nicce »

constantcrying wrote: post #43
coretx wrote: post #20

Plea deals rob victims from the truth they need for closure and recovery. On top of that, plea deals also undermine public trust in the rule of law. I wonder how "happy" the Judge is for being forced to give it credibility...

The criminal justice system doesn't exist to emotionally satisfy the victims.

It exist to prevent crimes happening. Looking at that $240M fine, seems like it will change nothing.

They probably made more money by not being so strict on safety. These fines are too low. Company should go close to bankruptcy if they do something serious.

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