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Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

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Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#61

Post by gregmac »

pwython wrote: post #26

I'll admit I'm someone who has always said "I have nothing to hide." Do I want someone physically recording me outside my window while changing clothes? No. But the majority of the time, we're just talking about targeted advertisements (which I actually prefer over random crap). Or a system that listens to keywords on phone calls that may identify and deter a terrorist threat. I don't see how this relates to "freedom…

Would you be okay with people reading and questioning your search history, and any activity or messages ever posted on any site? How about your family members, or doctor, or insurer? How about during a job/school/TV interview?

Are you happy to share your net worth, bank and credit account balance and activity with advertisers?

Are you ok with some AI determining (based on its opaque reasoning) that you are a potential terrorist threat, and should be imprisoned?

Even if you are okay with all the above, do you recognize that not all of society would agree and that some people could even be put into grave danger due to eg: political, religious, sexual etc views? In an extreme case, if "most" people are open and "have nothing to hide", it means that everyone who isn't open must "have something to hide" and should be persecuted. Normalizing this openness actually inches us toward this extreme.

Also you should recognize that your answer based on today's government and political parties may not resemble the parties that hold power in the future. Does an extreme group -- who is the farthest from your own views and in fact violently disagrees with your lifestyle choices -- taking power in the future not worry you at all?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#62

Post by slg »

w0m wrote: post #32
advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

> spying is abstract to them. Not just spying, but for many/most - the harm is also. Most people struggle on the day-to-day; getting worked up that a random boogieman is compiling a profile on them to serve ads leads to a big pile of 'so?'. When Windows Recall was announced as an example; I started asking (non tech, mostly boomer) people their take on it. I almost universally got a 'neat!' response. The security impl…

Because who you are keeping something private from is often more important than what you are keeping private. For example, there are plenty of things I would be fine sharing with the anonymous internet that I wouldn't share with my coworkers. My coworkers knowing something embarrassing about me has obvious harm. There is no real harm in strangers knowing something embarrassing about me. And companies and governments are both largely strangers.

I think the fundamental problem with the pro-privacy side of the debate is an inability to communicate why privacy matters in way that makes sense to people who think like this. The argument always seems to come down to some dystopian future in which this information is abused, but hypotheticals like that are just never very motivating when people have so many more pressing issues that are causing clear and immediate harm rather than some hypothetical future harm.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#63

Post by JumpCrisscross »

The problem with privacy isn’t the rhetoric. This is just crap we, HN visitors who are already of one mind, entertain ourselves with.

The problem is the overlap between those who prioritise it and political nihilism. If you want to have fun, argue with a totem. If you want to be effective, find an argument that will motivate making voting and calling electeds a habit. Particularly those who think both are a farce.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#64

Post by JumpCrisscross »

gklitz wrote: post #33
w4rh4wk5 wrote: post #9

> If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. I've always taken issues with this phrase as many people would be lead to believe the opposite as well: If you have something to hide, you have something to fear. Which further suggests that as soon as there's anything you want to hide, that has to be something criminal. Of course, this is utter garbage. People _do_ have things to hide, and it is rarely cri…

Any politician pirring forth this stupid statement needs to be asked if they are willing to submit to having their lives filmed 24/7 with no censorship of anything. They won’t even let us see their “private” messages to other politicians let alone let us see them neglect their families.

> Any politician pirring forth this stupid statement

Genuine question: who was the last one in America who did? (Article’s “some politicians” link is broken for me.)

Asking because it strikes me as a straw man we, who believe in privacy as a right, enjoying arguing against.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#65

Post by rolph »

pwython wrote: post #26

I'll admit I'm someone who has always said "I have nothing to hide." Do I want someone physically recording me outside my window while changing clothes? No. But the majority of the time, we're just talking about targeted advertisements (which I actually prefer over random crap). Or a system that listens to keywords on phone calls that may identify and deter a terrorist threat. I don't see how this relates to "freedom…

framing it as targeted advertising is a major part of the problem.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#66

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fallinditch wrote: post #57

Governments will always seek more surveillance of citizens - it's like crack to them. If we don't push back and work hard to protect our freedoms and privacy then we will end up in something like Orwell's 1984. See what's happening in China. The surveillance and oppression are particularly severe in the Xinjiang region, where authorities have implemented a multi-layered system of monitoring and control. This includes…

> Governments will always seek more surveillance of citizens

Plenty of governments have ceded powers, including surveillance. The Stasi was peacefully disassembled; Pinochet lost in a referendum.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#68

Post by rolph »

majorchord wrote: post #55
rolph wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dont try to simply shut the data off. salt and poison the data.

I would strongly suggest not doing this, because nobody will believe you when you claim the data is fake after they try to use it against you.

so people would actually belive i live in antarctica, and i am a martian colonist, and imbibe a pint of molten lava each morning?

i dont want anyone to belive it, i want it to be so fantastic it is invalidated.

such as glue on pizza.

thanx for the concern, i get what you are saying.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#70

Post by [deleted] »

CTDOCodebases wrote: post #51
Zelphyr wrote: post #3

When people say, “I have nothing to hide.” I remind them that they have a door on their bathroom and curtains over their windows for perfectly innocent yet no less valid reasons.

Another way to deal with this is to comment on their smartphone perhaps saying something like "Oh is that the new iPhone? Can I have a look" then ask them to unlock it. If they do so turn the phone away from them and start clicking on random apps or the settings and take a photos of the screen.

[deleted]
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