Live data from Hacker News

The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

nodicenoglory.com

61–70 of 84 posts

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#61

The military has a long history of using war games for training, going all the way back to Kriegspiel [1]. At least one history book [2], has been written about the topic. However it is rare that these military training games make it outside of their domain and become available to the general public. A rare exception may be the games designed by Volko Ruhnke [3], who designed games for training the CIA (though these…

The "Wrens" was a division of women Navy sailors who played WW2 war games to identify how German UBoats were so successful. Played many scenarios, and replayed events after attacks to understand German tactics. Would get called in to game out live events as they were happening to decide upon the next day's strategy. Arguably led to enormous increases in British naval effectiveness.

One little writeup I could find on it: https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/real-li... . Little blurb from the page:

  The Game, as it was to become known, took over the top floor of the building, which came to look like a cross between a school gym and a child’s nursery. The floor was covered in linoleum and divided into painted sectors. On this make-believe ocean, the Wrens moved miniature convoys – model merchant ships and their battleship chaperones – according to directions given by the officers taking part in the exercise. But while the Wrens were permitted a bird’s eye view of the play area, the naval captains were allowed only occasional peeks through holes in canvas booths, arranged at the side of the playing field, positioned to recreate the limitations of visibility at sea.
  ...During the post-mortem that followed each game, all of the players would be treated to a bird’s eye view of the battle. The officers could at last see the tracks of the U-boats drawn on the floor in green chalk, set against the movements of their own ships drawn in white, and learn from the umpires whether or not they had managed to sink any submarines. Often, the officers would realise that they had made numerous dreadful mistakes during the Game, which might have resulted in the loss of their ships in earnest combat.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#62
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That topic has come up a few times on wargame forums and there are those that claim to have played it one or more times. You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. Today any group playing it is more likely to play it using (the open source tool) VASSAL (here is the free module to download to play CNA: https://va…

> You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. I think you might be under-estimating how long a 1500 hour game is. A person who works 8 hours a day works 2000 hours in the course of a year. And if the game's in-person, there's travel time - it's not like a computer game where you can do a 1-hour session every even…

That is the modern (well, DnD 3E and later, so this century?) style of RPG campaign, with pre-packaged bundles of adventures to play in series, designed to last some specific time and then it ends. The traditional oldschool form of RPG campaign, still the way many groups play, and definitely the most common form last century (even if there were a few pre-packaged campaign modules for AD&D as well) is to create a group of characters and just keep playing adventure after adventure, more or less connected, replacing characters as they died off or players got bored with their current characters, but not really having a well-defined end, probably just fizzling out in the end as players drop off or the group decide to start a new campaign.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/20/us/dungeons-and-dragons-l...

(A bit extreme maybe, but I heard of shorter campaigns, but still lasting for at least a decade of regular play.)

And I think you underestimate how dedicated some people can be to playing games like CNA. It is a big game, but it is not absurdly long compared to other big board wargames.

Here is a BGG thread from 2010 (well before CNA became a mainstream meme?): https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/580214/

Note how the thread starts out "25 years after playing my last game of CNA".

So called "monster wargames" was a trend around 1980, toward the sudden end of the era of board wargames being almost-mainstream. I do not know if CNA was the biggest of all, but I think not. It was part of starting the trend, but later games were probably bigger and longer.

https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/42904/the-biggest-of-the-...

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#63
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That topic has come up a few times on wargame forums and there are those that claim to have played it one or more times. You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. Today any group playing it is more likely to play it using (the open source tool) VASSAL (here is the free module to download to play CNA: https://va…

> You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. I think you might be under-estimating how long a 1500 hour game is. A person who works 8 hours a day works 2000 hours in the course of a year. And if the game's in-person, there's travel time - it's not like a computer game where you can do a 1-hour session every even…

The actual North Africa campaign lasted a little under three years, let’s round it to 150 weeks. So if you spend less than 10 hours a week playing CNA, your game will take longer than the actual military campaign.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that these days the more modern military wargames done by legitimate organizations, that aren't physical simulations (a.k.a. laser tag for grownups), do use computers and have integrations with full-size flight sims and data analysis tools. I play game called Command: Modern Operation ^¹ which can barely be a called a game, but rather a military command simulation at the operational level masquerading…

You would be wrong about that - boardgames-like wargaming is used by militaries all over the world, including the US.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0okOrVaLCA

Oh, you are 100% correct and I'm just speculating.

I didn't intend to imply that they only used computers these days, just that they are used sometimes.

Though after looking over my comment once more, I see that it definitely reads that way.

Thanks for correction and extra info! If you have any more, please share as I find this all fascinating.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that they at the very least use a computer to calculate the outcomes of a battle.

> I hope that they at the very least use a computer to calculate the outcomes of a battle. From the article: The real core mechanic is how dice are used in the game. The dice act as an instant adjudicator and the system uses different sizes of dice that can be adjusted during game play. The map and counters also encode a lot of rapidly accessible state information. Using a computer would require all of this state inf…

This sounds extremely inefficient and even Luddite like. Having a computer involved wouldn’t reduce interaction. It would allow you to drastically increase the game speed.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#66
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a VR headset is hardly a replacement for an actual monitor especially for long periods of time

Have you actually tried it?

briefly. The image is far from being clear enough to replace a monitor. I havent tried Vision Pro from Apple so it may be better.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#67
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not uncommon for 4X to be Played By E-Mail (or any other way to transfer save files these days), in which case 1 turn per day is a common agreement. P.S.: The most recent thread for MP Civ4 on the biggest Civ forums is literally this : https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-returning-players... > Please note this is a long term commitment of multiple months requiring you to play a turn every day. We all real…

Is that one player per day, or all players complete 1 turn in a day? If the latter, how does that work with player turns needing to be made serially?

There are several concepts here :

- Orders can be executed either immediately

(you select a unit, tell it to move to another tile, it moves immediately, which also changes the state of your fog of war, or even starts combat),

or during turn processing on the server/host

(you select a unit, give it an order, but it will only execute it during turn processing).

- Play can be either sequential turns (one player after another), or simultaneous turns (everyone at the same time).

- Play can be either in real time, or in hotseat / by transferring saves (either to the next player, or the server/host).

All of the 6 combinations are in theory possible, though of course some are more common and make more sense than others, and will be more supported than others. For instance various Civilizations support both sequential or simultaneous turns (Later Heroes of Might and Magic even support simultaneous until players meet, then sequential !), and Space Empires 4/5 supports both immediate or delayed orders.

Then it gets even more complicated depending on whether the tactical combat happens directly on the strategic map, or is instanced on separate, tactical maps. Some games even have instanced combat where the game becomes an RTS when unit groups meet ! (Like Total War or Sword of the Stars or Space Empires 5.)

I have played PBEM with sequential turns and 1 turn per day, though of course these games then tend to limit the number of players.

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He has a high end VR device, not an Oculus Well, duh, would you use one of the cheapest laptops available for work ? (Unless for dogfooding purposes.)

Well, some people do claim one use of the Oculus is this. I remain skeptical that most consumer-grade VR headsets are useful for real work. (As an aside, in my work experience of more than 2 decades, almost every workplace provided me entry level laptops/computers. Only relatively recently have they started handing out MacBooks or similar equipment. You can do work with entry level laptops in a way you absolutely can…

What do you mean by "entry level" ? Did you have to work on an Eee PC during its time ? (I "did", but it was leased for free by the university, not an employer.) About a year ago I checked out laptops available at the supermarket, and most of them still didn't have an SSD !!

Though I think I get what you mean, and also Oculus isn't "entry level" (maybe the first consumer one would qualify today, I have (had ?) one and I can't imagine reading lots of text with that low resolution !), that would be the headsets without 6 Degrees of Freedom (or badly working ones).

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#69
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a common issue in 4X games (in a much less extreme form of course), doesn't mean they aren't games, or even bad games. P.S.: related : https://www.filfre.net/2020/01/master-of-orion/ > [...] > Because getting seven friends together in the same room for the all-day affair that was a complete game of Diplomacy was almost as hard in the 1960s as it is today, inventive gamers developed systems for playing it via p…

Agreed, but do most 4X games even have an endgame? Many sandbox games are endless by design, and the intersection of sandbox & 4X seems to be pretty big. I think it's different to CfNA in that this game simulates an actual campaign with clear goals, but that endgame cannot be reached in a reasonable time by any owner of this piece of cardboard. I'd say that's bad game design...

Well, yes, they do, for instance later Civilizations even provide multiple kinds of conditions for winning the game ! (Though in most playthroughs, the game will be clearly won or lost way before the endgame, especially in SP you often just declare the game 'won' because it's clear nobody will be able to catch up any more, and "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun the first few times.)

Sandbox doesn't mean no end goal(s), though you typically get the option to continue playing past the end goal(s).

Re: The Operational Wargame Series: The best game not in stores now (2021)

#70
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but do most 4X games even have an endgame? Many sandbox games are endless by design, and the intersection of sandbox & 4X seems to be pretty big. I think it's different to CfNA in that this game simulates an actual campaign with clear goals, but that endgame cannot be reached in a reasonable time by any owner of this piece of cardboard. I'd say that's bad game design...

Well, yes, they do, for instance later Civilizations even provide multiple kinds of conditions for winning the game ! (Though in most playthroughs, the game will be clearly won or lost way before the endgame, especially in SP you often just declare the game 'won' because it's clear nobody will be able to catch up any more, and "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun the first few times.) Sandbox doesn't mean no end g…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN