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Coup Attempt in Bolivia

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Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#61

Post by deciplex »

strstr wrote: post #20
teleforce wrote: post #19

[flagged]

What does this have to do with the article?

This coup attempt is, without any doubt, a project of the US State Department and intelligence community. You don't need a smoking gun here, or put another way the smoking gun is our posture toward Latin America for the last 100+ years.

The notion that we are not involved somehow is totally ludicrous. That doesn't have to mean that Tony Blinken (or Joe Biden) personally signed off on this, but we are involved. To suppose otherwise is to be naive to the point of stupidity.

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#62

Post by IAmGraydon »

teractiveodular wrote: post #60
IAmGraydon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What's necessary for who , exactly? Because some of those coups were for reasons like blocking land reform to ensure that the United Fruit Company can keep making money hand over fist in Guatemala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

What's necessary for the US to maintain its position at the top of the world order. The very article you linked states that the Guatemalan coups were initiated because of fears of communist influence.

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#63

Post by deciplex »

aredox wrote: post #52
tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bolivia has been independent since 1825 and has since then experienced over 190 coups. Nobody can whitewash US involvement in South and Central America in the 20th century, but the US is not the sole cause of Bolivian instability. Perhaps it makes more sense to blame colonialism, which set up the unstable rural/urban indigenous/white duality that has made the place so fragile.

Exactly. And remember that each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country, every time. (And one could argue that in many cases, if the US didn't do it, the USSR would have - but I recognize with honesty that does not apply to 100% of the cases, Chile especially). Maybe it is time for those countries to take a good hard look at themselves.

> each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country

Really? You mean every time we've tried to overthrow a foreign government we've been able to find locals who were willing to give us a hand if they could personally benefit from the arrangement? That's amazing! What are the odds?

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#65

Post by tptacek »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #62
teractiveodular wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's necessary for who , exactly? Because some of those coups were for reasons like blocking land reform to ensure that the United Fruit Company can keep making money hand over fist in Guatemala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

What's necessary for the US to maintain its position at the top of the world order. The very article you linked states that the Guatemalan coups were initiated because of fears of communist influence.

That was doubtless the case in Guatemala, but Guatemala in the 20th century is not Bolivia in the 21st.

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#66

Post by throwaw24062620 »

teleforce wrote: post #19

[flagged]

> US has engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change, some against proper democratically elected governments including the infamous 1953 Iranian coup d'état

This isn't true, the 1953 removal of Mosaddegh wasn't the removal of a democratically elected government. By the time of his removal, Mosaddegh has dissolved parliament, and started ruling directly by fiat, claiming that a fraudulent plebiscite gave him the ability to do so.

The Shah also had the constitutional authority to appoint and dismiss ministers including Mosaddegh at the time, which you can see if you read the constitution from the time or look at diplomatic cables from that time[1].

I haven't gone through the entire list, but if that's the main example that you're bringing up, I suspect many of the others are similarly being reported in a way that doesn't match reality (particularly when the occupation of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are on the list).

[1] https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1951-54Ira...

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#67

Post by deciplex »

tptacek wrote: post #41
teleforce wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silenc...

I'm repeating myself here, but this 2019 thing is a "coup" in which: * The ousted President had just claimed a victory in an unprecedented and unconstitutional 4th term election, after a judicial decision overruled both the constitution and the results of a failed referendum to amend the constitution to allow Morales to remain in power. * The claimed victory in that election was widely deemed fraudulent, including by…

> unprecedented

Not sure what you mean by that.

> unconstitutional

Not according to their Supreme Court.

> including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks)

I don't. No one should.

> unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later

She had no choice as the alternative by that point was a total overthrow of most major institutions of government, in which chaos she and her allies would have fared even worse than they did.

> The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since

As they should have. She was responsible for many deaths.

> pretty much universally condemned

Not universally.

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#68

Post by tptacek »

xtracto wrote: post #56
localfirst wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

im noticing lately that comments critical of America is routinely downvoted here. All of what you wrote holds true.

Lately? HN is a forum derived from an American company and promoting Silicon Valley culture. Most of the points of view of everything (not only politics) are strongly skewed towards American culture and beliefs. I would find it surprising if it was different .

Roughly 10% of HN is in SFBA, 50% in US, and 30% in Europe. SFBA people are a small minority here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745850

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#69

Post by deciplex »

orochimaaru wrote: post #44
jeremyjh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think you require proof of culpability, not the other way around. This is like being asked to prove you’re not guilty.

No, it's not, because this isn't a court of law. You're allowed to read between the lines here and use common sense. You don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Given the history of the US on matters such as this, it would be unusual if we weren't involved. That's really all that needs to be said.

Re: Coup Attempt in Bolivia

#70

Post by yieldcrv »

busterarm wrote: post #53
yieldcrv wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you’re asking people to prove a negative for reasons that are irrelevant and inconsequential, aside from your hardon for pointing out that the US coup’d some folks

Hey, a whole class of "political commentators" like Hasanabi have made whole careers off reframing every possible conversation around the braindead regurgitation of "America bad". And internet echo chambers are so bad that it substitutes for thoughtful commentary.

America opens itself to that criticism by calling itself a good, moral leader. As if its constituents and allies need to believe that.

So some people are gullible and eventually feel lied to. But I think the US could operate more at face value and then the same things occur without the cognitive dissonance. It would probably be far easier to support too.

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