Live data from Hacker News

We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

hiranmay.xyz

61–70 of 71 posts

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#61
post #27

This is a wonderful post and articulates something I've also struggled with over the years - and I'm much older than 16! To me, it can be distilled down to human decision making... how flawed we are in terms of cause/effect, how logical fallacies are so powerful. Ultimately we discovered that the Scientific Method was a tool for us to overcome these flaws. Hopefully there is a similar tool out there in the ether whic…

Thanks a lot!

I think that tool might be just any general framework that gives a better idea of what any small microscopic actions might lead to at a high-level. We definitely cannot qua(nt/l)ify how actions seep through given free-will and a general fringe-ness to us. We can still at least identify most probably scenarios without much difficulty. I believe behavioral economics or even epistemic studies do a good job of identifying general trajectories, by virtue of a fairly high sense of reducibility given human behavior and the benefit of hindsight respectively.

Indeed the human mind by itself isn't really trained to think beyond maybe one or two orders of implications that actions hold. Hindsight and somehow modelling agentic behavior by understanding incentives might do the trick.

Thanks again!

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#62
post #37

Great post, you're clearly on the right track. I totally agree that there is a major gap in modern theoretical understanding of how and why complex systems emerge. Breakthroughs in understanding the physical/informational processes that underlie complex adaptive systems could be immensely useful. I'll add a word of caution though. I'm most familiar with systems theory applied to biology. Biology is, in my opinion, th…

Thanks a lot for your kind words!

Really like your thoughts!

Indeed, lack of time-series observability makes it harder for us to find general patterns or causal events.

Definitely agree that biology is the pinnacle of all complexity - IMO something like macroeconomics or human behavior within set systems (society, politics, etc.) is fairly reducible to a very small and finite set of incentives that agents optimise for (food, shelter, status, acceptance, etc.).

Given this, Non-linearity and stochasticness still adds up to a general nature of non-determinism for the entire system.

With Biology on the other hand is extremely more complicated to study as - correct me if I'm wrong - it's still hard to realise what agents in systems are optimising for. reduction of free energy? reproduction? general homeostasis? etc. and then all these play varying roles in diff contexts, and then we'll still have to figure out how/why self-assembly and "wholes" emerging from smaller "wholes" (... ad infinitum) actually happens.

Really fuzzy thoughts but I believe There is some merit in exploring reducibility and observability from a time series perspective while considering effects of synchronity/asynchronity of observability and later how much we can desirably steer systems. Really fuzzy but I hope to work on this a bit more.

Thanks a lot for your very interesting comments! Not discouraged at all, love your view on systems theory being a "routine analysis" like statistics, i.e. a very generally applicable layer or meta-science that's an entirely new way to see things, which I should've articulated better in my post.

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I think it was a parallel study between nervous systems and electrical engineering principles by Wiener et al. that kickstarted cybernetics? Interesting! Will ping you!

If you're interested in getting an introduction to cybernetics, theres: 1. Ashby's introduction, but that's from the 60s. Foundational, but is limited to 1st order cybernetics. 2. E. W. Udo Küppers, A Transdisciplinary Introduction to the World of Cybernetics (2023): https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-658-42117-5 Provided a broad picture and basic intro to the history, central concepts, and various involved…

Huge thanks for the list! Interesting to wonder just how influential or generally just of what nature cybernetics would be today without funding issues, lack of categorisability and the field slowly drifting away from the original vision Wiener had.

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't already I highly recommend reading "Introduction to Cybernetics" by Ashby, it's got the nitty-gritty formalization that later "Second Generation" et. al. cybernetics drifted away from. You can get a free PDF of the book here: http://pcp.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html > This publication has been made possible largely through Mick Ashby, the author's grandson, who has convinced the copyright holders (the Ashby…

While I agree that nitty gritty formalizations are important to grasp, it's been made clear that the formal sciences were often insufficient in facilitating insight on the type of complexity cyberneticians cared about -- especially that of process oriented circular causality, which often involved paradox and self-reference. See Stuart Umpleby's lectures on the History of Cybernetics: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?…

I would say that the first-order Cybernetics (as exemplified IMO in Ashby's book) is all about symbolic formalism for "circular loops in causality", and that Second-Order Cybernetics is a species of mysticism (I hasten to add that I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I'm a Mystic myself.)

You could imagine a spectrum from logic to cybernetics to philosophy to mysticism. It's all fine, just I believe that it's important to be clear where on the spectrum you're working. If you want to build machines that do things use Cybernetics and feedback/control theory, if you want to grok reality and self eat a mushroom and read "Gödel, Escher, Bach" or Tao Te Ching.

In re: "Laws of Form", yeah, he identifies the boundary or distinction between the mystic realm (non-form, non-distinct, non-dual) and symbolic logic, and then builds a lovely binary Boolean logic directly off of that. It's a tour de force.

The really interesting thing is that George Spencer-Brown figured out how to deal with circular logical systems by introducing the concept of imaginary Boolean values.

It's a formal system for symbolic logic, and you can indeed build a lovely and efficient SAT solver with it using Bricken's Basis. E.g.: https://ariadne.systems/pub/~sforman/Thun/notebooks/Correcet...

(For reference, here's the LoF/Bricken formalism)

    Arithmetic

    (()) =
    ()() = ()

    Calculus

    A((B)) = AB
    A() = ()
    A(AB) = A(B)
(That third rule in the calculus, discovered by Bricken, is the kicker!)

cf. "The Markable Mark" George Burnett-Stuart http://www.markability.net/ GBS (not GSB, they're two different people) has managed to extend the system to Predicate Logic as well!

William Bricken's home page: https://wbricken.com/

His Iconic Math Page (a wonderland!) https://iconicmath.com/

To sum up, we need symbolic formalism to communicate and build machines, otherwise we're just sort of reading poetry to each other, which can still be helpful, but in a different way than building machines. (And when I say machines in the context of Cybernetics I mean to include those made out of people! "Human use of Human Beings", eh?)

As an aside, there is a fascinating talk and book "My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientistʼs Personal Journey" by Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor:

> In it, she tells of her experience in 1996 of having a stroke in her left hemisphere and how the human brain creates our perception of reality and includes tips about how Dr. Taylor rebuilt her own brain from the inside out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Stroke_of_Insight

https://youtu.be/UyyjU8fzEYU (TED Talk)

When "Laws of Form" talks about the beginning of logic from the pre-logical non-distinct or non-distinguished realm, the "mark" that divides the world into A and Not-A, it turns out to be quite literal, purely biological: the brain does it. When the part of her brain that "does logic" was rendered inoperative due to the stoke she was having, she reports an inability to tell herself from the world around her accompanied by oceanic bliss...

Mysticism is real, you just can't talk about it. The very first chapter of the Tao Te Ching says it right off: the Tao that can be talked about is not the Tao.

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#65
post #37

Great post, you're clearly on the right track. I totally agree that there is a major gap in modern theoretical understanding of how and why complex systems emerge. Breakthroughs in understanding the physical/informational processes that underlie complex adaptive systems could be immensely useful. I'll add a word of caution though. I'm most familiar with systems theory applied to biology. Biology is, in my opinion, th…

Thanks a lot for your kind words! Really like your thoughts! Indeed, lack of time-series observability makes it harder for us to find general patterns or causal events. Definitely agree that biology is the pinnacle of all complexity - IMO something like macroeconomics or human behavior within set systems (society, politics, etc.) is fairly reducible to a very small and finite set of incentives that agents optimise fo…

Interesting stuff!

I'm mostly thinking individual cells in a multicellular organism (i.e. lung cells in a person). It is indeed very hard to understand what they are optimizing for. Obviously, the organism as a whole is under selective pressure, but I'm not sure how much an individual cell in a given organism actually "feels" the pressure. Like, they undergo many cell cycles during one organism's life, but they're not really evolving or being selected during each cell cycle. Of course, this isn't always true as tumors definitely display selective pressure and evolution. But for normal tissue, I prefer to think of cells as dynamical systems operating under energetic and mass flux constraints. They're also constrained by the architecture of the interactions of the genes and proteins in the cell. All that adds up to something that looks a lot like evolutionarily optimized phenotypes, but I think that might be a bit deceptive, as the underlying process is different. It's not at all clear to me though. You're really getting at some deep questions! You might find this paper interesting in that regard:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nmeth.3254

Regarding reducibility and observability of time series, you might also find work from James (Jim) Sethna's lab at Cornell interesting. The math can be a bit hairy, but I think they do a pretty good job at distilling the concepts down so that they're intuitive. The overall idea is that some complex systems have "sloppiness", like some parts of the system can have any kind of weird, noisy behavior, but they don't change the overall behavior that much. Other parts of the system are "rigid", in that their behavior is tightly connected to the overall behavior.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.07176v1

You ought to get yourself connected with some folks at the Santa Fe Institute, if you haven't already. I know one affiliated professor, let me know if you want an introduction. At the very least, if you like podcasts, check theirs out. It's called "Complexity" and it's quite good.

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#66
post #13

This is an incredible perspective coming from a 16 y/o. For what it’s worth, it took me spending 12+ years studying biochem and adjacent topics at university, to reach a very similar perspective. The one criticism I’d make here (and tbh it’s unfair to expect more from the author) is that there has been a lot of work done towards this already. There are many systems biology textbooks, a much greater number of systems…

Thank you so much for the kind words! I'm definitely a little ignorant with respect to systems biology efforts. I have an okay-ish idea of the work of someone like Uri Alon, it's definitely not enough. What resource would you recommend for me to jump into? Uri Alon's course? I believe I lack many pre-requisites to take it.

To be honest I'm not really sure what advice to give you. You're probably in a spot where your knowledge/perspective is advanced enough to make you impatient around the fundamentals, and at the same time I'm not sure that you have the background required to take full advantage of more advanced materials. You don't seem to be where most 16 year olds are, is what I'm trying to say.

This is especially tricky in the field of bio / biochem, which feels like it requires memorizing a million facts before one gets to do any real thinking and reasoning. This unfortunately tends to filter out a lot of more mathematically-minded people who are stimulated by puzzles, which I think is a shame.

For what it's worth, I really enjoyed this textbook. I'm not sure you will find in it what you're hoping to find, but I hope it sparks even more curiosity; it's fairly advanced, probably more targeted at late-BSc or MSc/PhD students: https://www.amazon.com/First-Course-Systems-Biology/dp/08153...

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for the kind words! I'm definitely a little ignorant with respect to systems biology efforts. I have an okay-ish idea of the work of someone like Uri Alon, it's definitely not enough. What resource would you recommend for me to jump into? Uri Alon's course? I believe I lack many pre-requisites to take it.

To be honest I'm not really sure what advice to give you. You're probably in a spot where your knowledge/perspective is advanced enough to make you impatient around the fundamentals, and at the same time I'm not sure that you have the background required to take full advantage of more advanced materials. You don't seem to be where most 16 year olds are, is what I'm trying to say. This is especially tricky in the fiel…

>This is especially tricky in the field of bio / biochem, which feels like it requires memorizing a million facts before one gets to do any real thinking and reasoning. This unfortunately tends to filter out a lot of more mathematically-minded people who are stimulated by puzzles, which I think is a shame.

yes, this is exactly the part that makes it really really hard...

thanks a lot for the recommendation!

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks a lot for your kind words! Really like your thoughts! Indeed, lack of time-series observability makes it harder for us to find general patterns or causal events. Definitely agree that biology is the pinnacle of all complexity - IMO something like macroeconomics or human behavior within set systems (society, politics, etc.) is fairly reducible to a very small and finite set of incentives that agents optimise fo…

Interesting stuff! I'm mostly thinking individual cells in a multicellular organism (i.e. lung cells in a person). It is indeed very hard to understand what they are optimizing for. Obviously, the organism as a whole is under selective pressure, but I'm not sure how much an individual cell in a given organism actually "feels" the pressure. Like, they undergo many cell cycles during one organism's life, but they're no…

Thank you so much for the link to those two papers. I'll try and go through them.

>Like, they undergo many cell cycles during one organism's life, but they're not really evolving or being selected during each cell cycle.

This is a really interesting perspective.

>You ought to get yourself connected with some folks at the Santa Fe Institute, if you haven't already. I know one affiliated professor, let me know if you want an introduction.

I have read a few posts from SFI faculty and seen some video lectures of Krakauer and others, but as you said, I should get in touch to some degree.

You're very kind and I really appreciate you offering to intro me! I would really love that!

Would you mind if I follow up on this via e-mail? Can I send one to the address mentioned on your Vanderbilt department page?

Thanks a lot!

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#69
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fluid dynamics, we still don't really understand turbulence, Not to be pedantic - isn't this mathematically well described? You seem to have broad knowledge, am appealing to your insight :)

The regime change from laminar to turbulent flow is chaotic, so looking at a system in bulk will give you a decent description of the system, looking at any one part of the system will give you a random answer. This becomes problematic at systems boundaries, especially in engineering where we would like to understand the safety factor. Simulation can give you a reasonable starting place, but at the end of the day you…

Gotcha, thank you, appreciate the insight

Re: We must seek a widely-applicable science of systems

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting stuff! I'm mostly thinking individual cells in a multicellular organism (i.e. lung cells in a person). It is indeed very hard to understand what they are optimizing for. Obviously, the organism as a whole is under selective pressure, but I'm not sure how much an individual cell in a given organism actually "feels" the pressure. Like, they undergo many cell cycles during one organism's life, but they're no…

Thank you so much for the link to those two papers. I'll try and go through them. >Like, they undergo many cell cycles during one organism's life, but they're not really evolving or being selected during each cell cycle. This is a really interesting perspective. >You ought to get yourself connected with some folks at the Santa Fe Institute, if you haven't already. I know one affiliated professor, let me know if you w…

Yep email me!
Post reply on HN