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Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

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Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In aircraft, legal liability is unaffected by whether the autopilot is on; the pilot in command is responsible no matter what. I see no reason for cars to be any different.

What happens when one of the tools is malfunctioning? Say autopilot doesn’t turn off? Is it still blamed on captain?

Yes, because there are usually no less then 4 separate ways to turn it off (AP disconnect, trim switch, circuit breaker(s), servo override) and this includes small GA airplanes. The autopilot does not fly the airplane on intuition. It flies based on the way the pilot programmed it, malfunctions are expected and trained for and memory items are required for quick disabling of malfunctioning systems.

I’m a pilot and airplane owner.

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#62
post #4

"Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car responding to fatal crash": https://youtu.be/ukq6h55GnvE

The reporter claims "autopilot" yet the description and title of the youtube video says "self-drive mode". Probably the reporter was correct and it was changed for clickbait reasons.

You are asking for a YouTube video to be precise when Tesla is ambiguous?

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In aircraft, legal liability is unaffected by whether the autopilot is on; the pilot in command is responsible no matter what. I see no reason for cars to be any different.

What happens when one of the tools is malfunctioning? Say autopilot doesn’t turn off? Is it still blamed on captain?

Autopilot not turning off is not a realistic scenario. There are multiple ways to turn them off, including cutting power entirely by pulling a circuit breaker. You'll often see a colored plastic ring attached to the AP breaker for this exact reason.

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#64

It boggles my mind that any self driving system would knowingly drive into any object, no matter what it is, as large as a police car. I'd be willing to bet that Elon's insistence on only using cameras is combining with the flashing lights to effectively make objects that appear in some frames of video, and not in others, as the camera recovers from the flash... and this makes it appear as noise, and below a certain…

[dead]

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#65
post #47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify on the physiologically impossible bit: 1. The NTSB and FAA both found repeatedly, as have pretty much every other study - academic or otherwise - that people _cannot_ focus on watching a task without actually being involved in or doing the task. Any "self driving" model that requires the non-operator to be engaged in driving is simply not humanly possible. So the only reason for that stated rule is the man…

Aircraft autopilot flight is much more like cruise control in a car. The pilot flying is actively monitoring instruments and adjusting settings to make the autopilot do what's needed. Not playing games on their phone. Especially in the terminal area there is no such thing as the autopilot flying the plane with no pilot involvement. There are heading, speed and altitude adjustments as input to the autopilot just like…

The whole point is that they are not _constantly_ monitoring, because again it’s not something people are physiologically capable of.

The difference in aircraft autopilots is that if you take 5 or 10 or even 30 seconds to notice an issue, you correct. Whereas for “self driving” you have 2 seconds or less, and are expected to have complete situational awareness for the entire time. [edit: to notice non critical problems, immediate response failures have significant repetitive training to cause immediate correct response - stall, tcas, mcas, etc]

As in, the defined “correct” way to use self driving cars is to have as much focus awareness and concentration as you use while actually driving, only without actually doing anything at all. Which again, is not something that any person is capable of doing. This is established, even in the context of pilots.

In the context of commercial pilots as I understand it, autopilot is often disengaged for the purpose of ensuring they’re engaged (in addition to standard elements of not getting rusty).

And again, if the autopilot fails in flight, pilots who are trained specifically to deal with the myriad issues and complexities of failures and autopilot disconnects, have literal orders of magnitude more time to react than untrained occupants of “self driving” cars.

Referring to autopilot not existing in terminal or during takeoff/landing (though I do understand ILS or similar can handle normal landing?). Those are times when the pilots are actively engaged in operating the aircraft (even with ILS).

The issue with autopilot/self driving is not what happens while operating in an environment that requires active engagement by the operator (pilot or driver), nor what happens at points of engagement (start or end of travel, making adjustments to travel), it is that humans are physiologically incapable of maintaining engagement in an activity if they are not actually involved in the activity. Again, this is something that has been established in study after study, and applies to extremely well trained pilots responsible for hundreds of lives just as much as it does random driver.

These cars “self driving” systems require the occupant (they are not driving) of a car to have greater control and engagement, and faster reaction times, than a trained pilot, in a system that has even less cause for engagement.

You referenced how autopilot in an aircraft requires adjustments (which as far as I understand are not being made constantly, but no matter, let’s assume they are), “self driving” cars do not even have that. The argument “aircraft autopilot requires engagement from the pilot” does not make my point about “self driving” cars incorrect: it in fact further demonstrates how unsafe “self driving” cars are - pilots in this model do have actual engagement with the operation of the self flying plane, in addition to increased training, significantly larger time to react, and significantly better response options when no-delay responses are needed.

Self driving cars say the occupant is required to have greater engagement in driving the self driving car, while doing less, having less training, having less time to gain full situational awareness, having less time to respond when the system fails, and not having any clear response options or training for immediate-response-needed events.

I’m genuinely curious, and I’m sure that NTSB or FAA must have published some statistics on the amount of time pilots need to notice and respond correctly to different failure modes.

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought and discussion terminating meme twitter phrases like that bring the discourse level a lot lower on here. There was much discussion in the relevant thread about the pay issue. You’re a new account of 67 days, perhaps learn the culture here before spouting twitter / Reddit type culture war shit?

Looking at someone’s profile to find something irrelevant to discredit them, like you are doing with the age of my account, is the real Reddit behavior. It really has no logical bearing on the point I am making. As for the point I’m making: minor incidents that are not newsworthy get upvoted as long as they are unfavorable to Elon Musk. On the other hand, one of the most significant pieces of financial news this year…

It really is impressive how much he's disliked.

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#67
post #41

It boggles my mind that any self driving system would knowingly drive into any object, no matter what it is, as large as a police car. I'd be willing to bet that Elon's insistence on only using cameras is combining with the flashing lights to effectively make objects that appear in some frames of video, and not in others, as the camera recovers from the flash... and this makes it appear as noise, and below a certain…

First off, Tesla 'self driving' isn't a self driving system. Read their letters to the California DMV and ignore their marketting, including their choice of names. Second, radar wouldn't be better here. Afaik, all of the radar assisted cruise control / emergency braking systems ignore stationary objects when travelling above a certain speed. Using radar, it's difficult to determine the height or shape of a potential…

There needs to be regulation made by standards committees on what exactly is "self-driving" mode. Nobody should be allowed to use the term willy-nilly without extensive fines.

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#68
post #39

[dead]

Perceiving safety based on programming language is dumb and cringe, unless you're talking about something formally verifiable.

driving two tons of steel is a safety critical context, the less moving parts the better

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#69
post #67
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, Tesla 'self driving' isn't a self driving system. Read their letters to the California DMV and ignore their marketting, including their choice of names. Second, radar wouldn't be better here. Afaik, all of the radar assisted cruise control / emergency braking systems ignore stationary objects when travelling above a certain speed. Using radar, it's difficult to determine the height or shape of a potential…

There needs to be regulation made by standards committees on what exactly is "self-driving" mode. Nobody should be allowed to use the term willy-nilly without extensive fines.

The Society of Automative Engineers has a taxonomy [1]. But no way to enforce usage.

[1] https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3016_202104/

Re: Tesla in self-drive mode slams into police car in Orange County

#70
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, Tesla 'self driving' isn't a self driving system. Read their letters to the California DMV and ignore their marketting, including their choice of names. Second, radar wouldn't be better here. Afaik, all of the radar assisted cruise control / emergency braking systems ignore stationary objects when travelling above a certain speed. Using radar, it's difficult to determine the height or shape of a potential…

Afaik, all of the radar assisted cruise control / emergency braking systems ignore stationary objects when travelling above a certain speed. This is false. Radar assisted cruise control definitely do not ignore stationary objects above a certain speed; indeed, detecting stationary objects is a fundamental part of how emergency braking systems work... Other automakers are simply better at determining what objects are…

Whether it's true or not, Elon has previously explicitly stated that they ignore stationary items

He went so far as saying that a can on the road was indistinguishable from a highway underpass and then went on about how they would white list every underpass to avoid it triggering

But this is Elon, so I have no faith in its accuracy, but don't be surprised when people believe that the CEO is describing how their car works

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