Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 71 posts

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#61

Post by protomolecule »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #50
ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but you need propaganda to push NATO borders on Russia, arm a coup, start a civil unrest, fund a war, destroy a peace treaty (Turkey 2022) and then drip feed arms to destroy two countries at same time. Even in a thread about sick US propaganda, the apologists find an excuse for war.

I'm not a fan of either side. I really really don't like how America is overlooking the literal Nazis in Ukraine they are funding while pretending that various legitimate political positions on US social policies are equivalent to "Nazism". But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine. "Pushing NATO borders on Russia"? Why does that justify invading Ukraine? If every country next to Russia join…

>If every country next to Russia joined NATO, that still wouldn't justify it.

The US was going to start WW3 over Cuba becoming an ally of the USSR.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#62

Post by protomolecule »

tim333 wrote: post #43
akira2501 wrote: post #20

> The U.S. military is prohibited from targeting Americans with propaganda, and Reuters found no evidence the Pentagon’s influence operation did so. The US military should be banned from using propaganda in any form. We're not in a war. There's no justifiable reason to spend US tax payer dollars to actively lie to the rest of the world. What a shameful and tawdry use of our institutions.

Not that I agree with the vaccine stuff, but the US are in something of a information war with the Russians and Chinese.

Yes, but it is important to remember that the information that contradicts 'Russian propaganda' is 'American propaganda' and there is no particular reason to prefer one over another.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#63

Post by racional »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #59
ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at that guy's historical comments. All his comments are pro war in Israel and Ukraine. He is the glowie the newspaper is talking about. All of his comments are bone chilling.

I don't dismiss people's words based on the history of the person. The worst person can have sensible logic in some cases and vice versa

The problem is that the GP is just lying, straight up.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#64

Post by racional »

racional wrote: post #60
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because the…

So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine. But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an im…

"Check in on", "alongside"

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#65

Post by foverzar »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #50
ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but you need propaganda to push NATO borders on Russia, arm a coup, start a civil unrest, fund a war, destroy a peace treaty (Turkey 2022) and then drip feed arms to destroy two countries at same time. Even in a thread about sick US propaganda, the apologists find an excuse for war.

I'm not a fan of either side. I really really don't like how America is overlooking the literal Nazis in Ukraine they are funding while pretending that various legitimate political positions on US social policies are equivalent to "Nazism". But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine. "Pushing NATO borders on Russia"? Why does that justify invading Ukraine? If every country next to Russia join…

> But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine.

Russian intervention was triggered by Kyiv botching the Minsk agreements and terminating ceasefire. That's the prime reason, since Russia is legally bound to provide military aid to Donetsk by the abovementioned agreement. Western propaganda is hard on erasing the side that never supported the coup in Kyiv.

Everything else are just additional grievances, i.e. assuming that the current Ukrainian government is crazy and non-sovereign enough to allow deployment of missiles previously forbidden by the recently dissolved INF treaty.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#66

Post by foverzar »

tim333 wrote: post #41
ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but you need propaganda to push NATO borders on Russia, arm a coup, start a civil unrest, fund a war, destroy a peace treaty (Turkey 2022) and then drip feed arms to destroy two countries at same time. Even in a thread about sick US propaganda, the apologists find an excuse for war.

That sounds a bit like Russian propaganda you know. Like Russia sending the tanks to kill Ukrainians and take their land is all the fault of the horrible people pushing peace and democracy.

How else something contradicting western propaganda is supposed to sound like?

> all the fault of the horrible people pushing peace and democracy

Please don't push this "nothing was happening in Donbas before 22". It's ignorant at best and just cruel at worst.

Using the peaceful reunification agreement as a way to stall and to prepare for war against dissidents has nothing to do with "pushing peace and democracy".

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#67

Post by foverzar »

It wasn't just against China, they were campaigning against all non-western vaccines. Either you get Phizer/Astra-Zenka, or that evil Chinese/Russian/whatever liquid will make your eyes bleed out.

It's not even a "secret", you can just read "Radio Free Europe": the messaging was absolutely obvious.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#68

Post by aprilthird2021 »

racional wrote: post #60
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because the…

So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine. But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an im…

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it.

To complete the analogy, if an American military unit used the same symbols the Nazis used while collaborating with the Nazis during WWII and then a modern-day American military unit proudly used those same symbols while constantly being told by all their allies, NATO, various allies journalists, etc. that these symbols cannot be shown to the public, they should absolutely be disbanded and never allowed to use such symbols again.

Why doesn't that happen in Ukraine? It's such a an obvious thing to do, you never ever answer this question, just always pick on minor things and make up strange interpretations of minor parts of what I'm saying

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#69

Post by racional »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #68
racional wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine. But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an im…

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it. To complete the analogy, if an American military unit…

Didn't mean to ignore your half of your preceding post; just that takes time to unpack and respond to these points, and honestly, it seems a lot of your arguments just aren't well-constructed.

But leaving that aside, and to address just the first line, if I may, of your post above:

I'm quite familiar with Ukraine's collaborationist history in WW II. Of course callaboration was widespread, and the occupation forces had substantial support (or at least acquiescence) throughout the population -- again, as in all occupied countries. There's a reason they were able to pull of the multi-year Babyn Yar operation just outside the center of Kyiv, were able to recruit so many Trawniki to do the dirty in their camps, and so on. This isn't a revelation to me at all.

My question to you is -- how does any of this history move the needle (serve as "proof" in your words) -- or have any other kind of bearing, for that matter -- in regard to any of the assertions you're making about Azov today? As I asked in my most recent response (and you "ignored"): what is the actual chain of implication and substantiation here?

I'm just not seeing any. If you can enlighten me as to why I should, perhaps we can continue with the other points. But in any case that's all I have time for right now.

Because it actually takes a lot of time to answer you carefully and patiently like this, you know.

Re: Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic

#70

Post by racional »

racional wrote: post #69
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it. To complete the analogy, if an American military unit…

Didn't mean to ignore your half of your preceding post; just that takes time to unpack and respond to these points, and honestly, it seems a lot of your arguments just aren't well-constructed. But leaving that aside, and to address just the first line, if I may, of your post above: I'm quite familiar with Ukraine's collaborationist history in WW II. Of course callaboration was widespread, and the occupation forces ha…

And about that guy they put in front of the Canadian parliament (even though he has absolutely nothing to do with Azov, and hence nothing one might say about him can have any bearing on the original assertions you were making) -- just to get him out of the way:

If you think that anyone who fought or otherwise worked for the Germans -- even if they served in the camps and did horrific things there (which this guy did not apparently), or served in a nominally elite military unit (as he did) -- is ipso facto a Nazi -- then it seems you haven't taken stock of one of the cardinal rules by which the Nazis operated in these countries (or any long-lived dictatorship operates for that matter, including certainly Putin's).

Which is: they don't need you to join the Party, or even believe the ideological flim-flam (and in the Nazis' case -- they definitely didn't need you to be antisemitic). You can even be a bit skeptical, or outright disdainful under the hood. At the end of the day, they don't really care about what your think as an individual. And they don't need you to be hip to their Master Plan.

They just need you to go along with it.

Post reply on HN