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ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

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Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#61

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Dalewyn wrote: post #48
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they might want to keep it under lock and key for a competitive and national security advantage.

There are two schools of philosophy to consider here: * You keep your secret sauce secret and take over the world with subsequent products. * You sell your secret sauce to everyone and take over the world becoming the sole source of secret sauce. So far, China has had resounding success with the latter.

I don't think that applies to technology that no one else really has. China is great at bringing down cost of something the west can already produce...they just flood the market with lower cost versions that destroy the business case for developing those products in the west. Solar panels, rare earth refinement, drones, EVs, etc...the west can do all of that, but if they undercut the market, they won't and eventually those capabilities stagnate.

But if they have something the west doesn't have, why sell it and up an advantage? We aren't friends. There are plenty of things the Chinese aren't selling to the west already (real innovations), and vice versa.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#62

Post by varjag »

chmod775 wrote: post #54
varjag wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of expertise with lasers and precision optics around the world.

There's a lot of expertise with lithography around the world too (companies like Canon build lithography machines), but we're not talking the usual levels of it. The EUV lasers ASML/TRUMPF builds don't even work the same way other "conventional" lasers would[1]. You physically can't get there by incrementally improving some existing process. Now I don't know how ZEISS makes mirrors that blown up to the size of a coun…

It is impressive for sure, but still a lot of other things are. Mirror arrays on JWST, fusion ignition lasers. Diffraction limited optics aren't exactly last year development either: there's a host of other places across several countries who can match Zeiss for what is essentially bespoke builds.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#63

Post by impossiblefork »

jpgvm wrote: post #56
phkahler wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> ASML is going to remain a monopoly and whatever Chinese alternative that there may be is going to stay in China. Suppose China develops a cheaper way to produce the EUV light and sells the tools for half what ASML does. They might sell to others just to become the leader.

Or they skip EUV all together and go straight to xray. IMO that is the real threat to both ASML and the current Western supply chain. By forcing China out you make it very likely they will choose to leap-frog instead of try play catch-up. They did it with EVs there is a very good chance they do it with semiconductors also.

Surely it would damage the resist?

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#64

Post by jpgvm »

impossiblefork wrote: post #63
jpgvm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they skip EUV all together and go straight to xray. IMO that is the real threat to both ASML and the current Western supply chain. By forcing China out you make it very likely they will choose to leap-frog instead of try play catch-up. They did it with EVs there is a very good chance they do it with semiconductors also.

Surely it would damage the resist?

It would need entirely new resist, lenses, associated inspection, cleaning and repair equipment etc.

Which sounds like a terrible idea until you realize they would need all the same stuff for EUV except when they are done they would still be ~10-15 years behind.

Building an entirely new process based on xray would be challenging certainly but not that much more challenging from going from where they are to EUV.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#65

Post by chmod775 »

varjag wrote: post #62
chmod775 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of expertise with lithography around the world too (companies like Canon build lithography machines), but we're not talking the usual levels of it. The EUV lasers ASML/TRUMPF builds don't even work the same way other "conventional" lasers would[1]. You physically can't get there by incrementally improving some existing process. Now I don't know how ZEISS makes mirrors that blown up to the size of a coun…

It is impressive for sure, but still a lot of other things are. Mirror arrays on JWST, fusion ignition lasers. Diffraction limited optics aren't exactly last year development either: there's a host of other places across several countries who can match Zeiss for what is essentially bespoke builds.

> there's a host of other places across several countries who can match Zeiss for what is essentially bespoke builds.

Ah yes. No development time involved here at all. They just built it. I don't know what ASML, TRUMPF, Zeiss, and occasionally the Fraunhofer Institute were mucking about for 25 years. Completely boring bespoke build. Bah. Could get it from anyone else by next week. Pick an off-the-shelf coating too and be done.

It's a wonder nobody else is taking a slice of those ~4 billion USD of revenue Zeiss is making off a bunch mirrors for lithography machines each year.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#66

Post by gxt »

rramadass wrote: post #40

Coincidentally, i have been recently watching/reading a bunch of videos/articles on ASML and their technology. Can some experts/knowledgeable folks here actually explain the technology in ELI5 (and above) terms? As i understand, a laser (what are its characteristics?) is fired at Tin droplets in a vaccuum chamber causing it to emit light in "Extreme UV" wavelength range which is then focused using a set of Zeiss mirr…

Huygens Optics might be interesting to you. https://youtu.be/rdlZ8KYVtPU

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#67

Post by rramadass »

gxt wrote: post #66
rramadass wrote: post #40

Coincidentally, i have been recently watching/reading a bunch of videos/articles on ASML and their technology. Can some experts/knowledgeable folks here actually explain the technology in ELI5 (and above) terms? As i understand, a laser (what are its characteristics?) is fired at Tin droplets in a vaccuum chamber causing it to emit light in "Extreme UV" wavelength range which is then focused using a set of Zeiss mirr…

Huygens Optics might be interesting to you. https://youtu.be/rdlZ8KYVtPU

Absolutely Brilliant! The animation of diffraction physics and mapping them to the terms in the given formula is just superlative. Scientific explanation through video at its best! Not too complicated and not too dumbed down but just the essence in a very understandable way. I now need to consult my Physics books for a Wave Optics brush up :-)

Thanks for pointing me to this. This truly deserves all the views/recognition from HN/larger Internet.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#68

Post by impossiblefork »

jpgvm wrote: post #64
impossiblefork wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it would damage the resist?

It would need entirely new resist, lenses, associated inspection, cleaning and repair equipment etc. Which sounds like a terrible idea until you realize they would need all the same stuff for EUV except when they are done they would still be ~10-15 years behind. Building an entirely new process based on xray would be challenging certainly but not that much more challenging from going from where they are to EUV.

Alternatively, present wavelengths are what make sense, and attempts to go to shorter wavelength will only cause delay.

If one goes for particle accelerator based systems with wigglers, then of course none of this will matter, since the wavelength will be variable and one can use whatever wavelength is ideal, but the idea that going to shorter wavelengths is always better is something I think is crazy. There'll be some optimal wavelength.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#69

Post by jpgvm »

impossiblefork wrote: post #68
jpgvm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would need entirely new resist, lenses, associated inspection, cleaning and repair equipment etc. Which sounds like a terrible idea until you realize they would need all the same stuff for EUV except when they are done they would still be ~10-15 years behind. Building an entirely new process based on xray would be challenging certainly but not that much more challenging from going from where they are to EUV.

Alternatively, present wavelengths are what make sense, and attempts to go to shorter wavelength will only cause delay. If one goes for particle accelerator based systems with wigglers, then of course none of this will matter, since the wavelength will be variable and one can use whatever wavelength is ideal, but the idea that going to shorter wavelengths is always better is something I think is crazy. There'll be so…

I agree. Particle accelerator systems are exactly what I had in mind, synchrotron or free electron lasers to generate the xray beamlines necessary.
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