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Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

businessinsider.com

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Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#61

Post by lazide »

nine_zeros wrote: post #60
lazide wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had to put about a dozen people on PIPs over the years. Of that, roughly 8 of them passed. 2 of them were promoted almost immediately afterwards (merit based), 4 of the rest within a year or two. Because they grew. Of the other group, some were close. Some were not. All were having consistent performance issues for significant periods of time, and were not responding to any of the normal feedback mechanisms. One…

> The difference between the two groups? The first group took ownership of their actual performance, understood what the concerns were, and addressed them. The second group, either refused to take any ownership of what was going on, was unable to for whatever reason, or like in the last really troublesome case, decided to blame and attempt to manipulate everyone else rather than face their actual issues. My suggestio…

Oh, ‘externalities’? Please do tell.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#62

Post by clipsy »

Maxatar wrote: post #57
clipsy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIPs aren't about unemployment insurance; they're about reducing the risk of a wrongful firing lawsuit.

I think people have a huge misunderstanding about what a wrongful termination is. Unless you're part of a union or work in the state of Montana, which most software developers do not, then you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption.

> as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption.

That is precisely what I meant.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#63

Post by nytesky »

adumbthrowaway wrote: post #54

Dumb throwaway here as stupidly my real name is attached to my primary account. I just got PIP'd, and then fired. The objectives of the PIP were impossible to complete, dependent on externalities that I couldn't control. A box checking process indeed. Although, I dont think my boss entered it in bad faith, I'm pretty sure his boss made the decision. WHat sucks is that I've been fighting some medical issues for the pa…

Could you have taken FMLA to go part time — I’m not sure but it may give some coverage from the PIP process (while on FMLA can they PIP you?) and then with a full recovery maybe you would have a chance?

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#64

Post by nytesky »

talldayo wrote: post #4
jackyalcine wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a good article for folks who don't know (which is still a lot - people think that getting into tech is a sure way to get rich and not be routinely abused by a neocolonial industry)!

I'm of two minds here. I know what you're talking about, and I don't hate people trying to get ahead by gaming the system; fundamentally that's what we're all here to do. But at the same time, decoding what 'business language' means in real-world terms is an essential skill in today's market. People who can't figure this out are going to be chewed up and spit out by the machine one way or another. The entire reason w…

I thought many companies used PIPs as stealth layoffs or to clawback unvested equity once an employee had mostly completed the project they were hired for?

I’m completely unable to grok “business language”. Perhaps like the hippie poster I should look to my country bumpkin parents, but I’m old enough that I should look inward. It’s probably my cynicism that makes me unable to hold the optimism behind business jargon (synergy, thought leadership, and co-opting the word ‘strategy’ for any and every decision).

I’ve pursued very hands on work that is pretty far from the business end and just hope to hang on long enough to earn my nest egg and provide for my family to maybe have enough good cheer to thrive in corporate America unlike their grumpy old man.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#65

Post by russelldjimmy »

ugh123 wrote: post #38
throw141292 wrote: post #34

They are not all in bad faith. Maybe it depends on the company. Once I had a really bad family issue. Won't go into it, but I took a bunch of time off. Coming back to work, I wasn't fully engaged, because there was a lot of chaos. So I got put on a pip. My manager did this in good faith. He gave me a bunch of things to do, a bunch of milestones to meet, deadlines. Honestly, it was a lifeline I needed. And better, I d…

But was that really a pip? A "pip" in corporate culture is typically also combined with a chat with HR and official documentation written by, for, and with HR.

It seems to fit the definition of a PIP. If you’ve defined that every PIP must be a bad faith one, and this is not one of them, it doesn’t stop it from being a PIP.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#66

Post by russelldjimmy »

JohnMakin wrote: post #36

Better to be put on a PIP than this other weird thing that can happen sometimes, where you’re “unassigned” from a team, maybe due to layoffs or restructuring or performance, but report to essentially no one and have no real work to do. Eventually they expect you to get frustrated and quit, but it can be very difficult when you are in that situation to figure out where you stand.

Oh wow, this is a thing? It happened to me.

- unassigned from a team

- report to no one

- no real work to do

- got frustrated and quit

I didn’t stick around till appraisals. I shudder to think what might have happened if I did. No one was looking at my performance.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#67

Post by jemmyw »

JohnMakin wrote: post #36

Better to be put on a PIP than this other weird thing that can happen sometimes, where you’re “unassigned” from a team, maybe due to layoffs or restructuring or performance, but report to essentially no one and have no real work to do. Eventually they expect you to get frustrated and quit, but it can be very difficult when you are in that situation to figure out where you stand.

that doesn't sound that bad as an swe. Work on some of those frustrations, do some refactoring, bug fixing and documenting. Maybe have some extra time for job hunting. At least you're being paid.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#68

Post by nine_zeros »

lazide wrote: post #61
nine_zeros wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference between the two groups? The first group took ownership of their actual performance, understood what the concerns were, and addressed them. The second group, either refused to take any ownership of what was going on, was unable to for whatever reason, or like in the last really troublesome case, decided to blame and attempt to manipulate everyone else rather than face their actual issues. My suggestio…

Oh, ‘externalities’? Please do tell.

> Oh, ‘externalities’? Please do tell.

Tell of a manager that doesn't understand engineering, collaboration, and tradeoffs.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#69

Post by throw141292 »

ugh123 wrote: post #38
throw141292 wrote: post #34

They are not all in bad faith. Maybe it depends on the company. Once I had a really bad family issue. Won't go into it, but I took a bunch of time off. Coming back to work, I wasn't fully engaged, because there was a lot of chaos. So I got put on a pip. My manager did this in good faith. He gave me a bunch of things to do, a bunch of milestones to meet, deadlines. Honestly, it was a lifeline I needed. And better, I d…

But was that really a pip? A "pip" in corporate culture is typically also combined with a chat with HR and official documentation written by, for, and with HR.

This was an official pip. No specific meeting with an HR person, but htey were involved. There was paperwork, formal list of goals/expectations, timeline, I had to agree. There was an evaluation, there was an end date.

Re: Pips are disingenuous. If you get put on one, find a new job as fast as possible

#70

Post by Maxatar »

clipsy wrote: post #62
Maxatar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people have a huge misunderstanding about what a wrongful termination is. Unless you're part of a union or work in the state of Montana, which most software developers do not, then you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption.

> as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption. That is precisely what I meant.

I doubt that.
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