macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips • Hacker News Board

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#61

Post by mirzap » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:23 AM UTC

mirekrusin wrote: post #33

mirzap wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What eWaste are you talking about? The lifetime, battery life, and software updates are way longer than those of any other tablet on the market. iPads are not a replacement for Macbooks or PCs; let it be the iPad.

If they are replacement or not should be decision of person who bought it, not company who sells it. They can still keep their ecosystem. You should be able to unlock it to install alternative operating system. Unlocking should be explicit to not give an option for theft.

Nope! In the same way, I don't want to be able to install a "custom" OS in my car; I don't want the ability in more personal devices. "Opening" is weakening; there's no way around it.

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#62

Post by fastball » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:25 AM UTC

MaxikCZ wrote: post #48

walterbell wrote: post #11

Asahi Linux supports nested virtualization on Apple Silicon M2, where the feature is present in the chip, but not exposed by macOS.

I was shopping for a phone some time ago. iP14 Pro had always-on display while non-Pro version didnt. Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled. Next year iP15, both non-Pro and Pro have Oled, but again only Pro has always-on display. Honestly that is the reason I am still on my Note9, and looking for another Android. I understand what product segmentation is, and probably I am minority, but dam…

The screen on the (non-pro) iPhone 15 still has the 60Hz refresh rate, which is a limiting factor claimed by Apple, not just OLED.

Because in always-on mode, the refresh rate on the Pro drops down to a much lower refresh rate, as low as 1Hz.

Apple could've shipped an always on display mode with either OLED or a variable refresh-rate screen (or neither), but they only wanted to do it when they have both.

OLED so that black pixels are not illuminated and you save a good chunk of battery on that.

Variable RR so that you can drastically reduce that to save battery life as well.

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#63

Post by walterbell » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:26 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #45

cyberax wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is VERY different from Windows Home/Pro. Windows doesn't bar you from running custom code. Windows Home does not ship Hyper-V, but it allows you to run your own hypervisors just fine.

It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation . In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. Th…

> create market segmentation

Which is the "better edition": $2000 iPad Pro or $2000 Macbook?

If the goal is to maximize hardware device proliferation, third (and Nth) variants could be created with software-locked differentiation. Why stop at 2 hardware editions?

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#64

Post by justinclift » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:26 AM UTC

nebula8804 wrote: post #47

walterbell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 7-9 years of software updates After which they could run Linux, instead of being e-waste. > unique use cases as evidenced by todays keynote Mark Gurman, Bloomberg journalist covering Apple for years, https://x.com/markgurman/status/1800348268385521876 ? Apple needs to put 25% of the vigor into iPadOS that it just put into Apple Intelligence because this is getting ridiculous. The iPad Pro gets incredible new hardwa…

>After which they could run Linux, instead of being e-waste. There is so much PC based garbage that ends up in the eWaste trash destroyed way before years 7-9 hit and you are complaining about a device that is not even designed to be used in a server/desktop OS configuration? >iPadOS 18 did get a calculator. This really does explain it all...Just pure ignorance based on hatred of Apple.

> There is so much PC based garbage that ends up in the eWaste trash destroyed way before years ...

So you're saying people should just accept their old iPads can't have a meaningful life after iPadOS support ends?

And that's because "Apple doesn't want them to", so that's it. No questions asked, just accept the results?

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#65

Post by planb » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:26 AM UTC

MaxikCZ wrote: post #48

walterbell wrote: post #11

Asahi Linux supports nested virtualization on Apple Silicon M2, where the feature is present in the chip, but not exposed by macOS.

I was shopping for a phone some time ago. iP14 Pro had always-on display while non-Pro version didnt. Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled. Next year iP15, both non-Pro and Pro have Oled, but again only Pro has always-on display. Honestly that is the reason I am still on my Note9, and looking for another Android. I understand what product segmentation is, and probably I am minority, but dam…

This is not software segmentation though. The Pro's OLED display is really a different hardware component that supports varible refresh rates down to 1Hz ("Pro Motion")

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#66

Post by derefr » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:27 AM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #58

derefr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation . In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. Th…

> It's not about running arbitrary code But it is. Microsoft just doesn't want home users to run Hyper-V, without paying for a (slightly) more expensive Windows Pro license. Home users still can download free VirtualBox or whatever other solution they care to use. They can also upgrade to a Pro license in-place, by paying $100. This is all perfectly normal. iPadOS is completely different. Apple does not _allow_ users…

No, I mean, "not allowing you to run arbitrary code" is just a side-effect, not the design choice. The design choice is market segmentation.

In the Windows case, they can enforce your inability to install/enable Hyper-V on Windows Home through simple measures like protecting system files from modification.

But in the iPadOS case, the only way to really prevent you from running a macOS VM, is by preventing you from running any VM.

Due to the Turing-completeness of virtual machines, there's really no lesser measure they can take. You literally cannot create a piece of software that can run arbitrary VMs except for if the VM is semantically macOS. Whatever signal you would look for to blacklist macOS, an adversarial VM creator can mask by modifying the installation. (At an equilibrium point of such a game, the "adversarially-created macOS VM" would end up looking more like a Hackintosh rootfs than like a Mac rootfs — but it'd still look and feel and work like macOS, and that's all users would care about.)

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#67

Post by justinclift » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:29 AM UTC

nailer wrote: post #10

Anyone have a practical case for this? Not complaining just wondering.

Docker containers (ie Docker Desktop) running inside macOS VMs.

That would fix a current blocking problem, as the lack of nested virtualisation means Docker Desktop (which runs its containers inside a Linux VM) has to run on the host and can't run inside a VM.

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#68

Post by zuhsetaqi » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:29 AM UTC

MaxikCZ wrote: post #48

walterbell wrote: post #11

Asahi Linux supports nested virtualization on Apple Silicon M2, where the feature is present in the chip, but not exposed by macOS.

I was shopping for a phone some time ago. iP14 Pro had always-on display while non-Pro version didnt. Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled. Next year iP15, both non-Pro and Pro have Oled, but again only Pro has always-on display. Honestly that is the reason I am still on my Note9, and looking for another Android. I understand what product segmentation is, and probably I am minority, but dam…

> Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled.

Where did Apple justified that?

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#69

Post by walterbell » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:30 AM UTC

mirzap wrote: post #61

mirekrusin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are replacement or not should be decision of person who bought it, not company who sells it. They can still keep their ecosystem. You should be able to unlock it to install alternative operating system. Unlocking should be explicit to not give an option for theft.

Nope! In the same way, I don't want to be able to install a "custom" OS in my car; I don't want the ability in more personal devices. "Opening" is weakening; there's no way around it.

> "Opening" is weakening

Please respect ancestors!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

  Darwin is the core Unix operating system of macOS (previously OS X and Mac OS X), iOS, watchOS, tvOS, iPadOS, visionOS, and bridgeOS. It previously existed as an independent open-source operating system, first released by Apple Inc. in 2000. It is composed of code derived from NeXTSTEP, FreeBSD, other BSD operating systems, Mach, and other free software projects' code, as well as code developed by Apple.

Re: macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips

#70

Post by derefr » Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 6:31 AM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #63

derefr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation . In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. Th…

> create market segmentation Which is the "better edition": $2000 iPad Pro or $2000 Macbook? If the goal is to maximize hardware device proliferation, third (and Nth) variants could be created with software-locked differentiation. Why stop at 2 hardware editions?

> Which is the "better edition": $2000 iPad Pro or $2000 Macbook?

The one of the two with a lower profit margin for the manufacturer would usually be the one considered to have more "value" in it.

The usual way to measure this, when software editions are locked to particular hardware, is by looking at the cheapest hardware they sell that'll have the given edition of the software installed.

(Another example of this: managed vs unmanaged routers.)

> Why stop at 2 hardware editions?

You're limited by the willingness of your developer ecosystem to develop different versions of the same third-party software for all your different OSes. Nobody wants a device with no third-party app support.

(But that being said, there is actually a third, even-less-capable hardware ecosystem Apple sells, with its own ecosystem of mostly fungible apps: Apple TV!)