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Scandal at America's top science fair

karlstack.com

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#61

Post by rblatz »

tonymet wrote: post #46
notjoemama wrote: post #33

In reading this, I am reminded of a YouTube video by CGP Grey about how anger is more viral than any other emotional reaction online, including love. But then I think, isn't this one of those times where at least some level of annoyance is justified? Except, there's nothing I can do about it. Does making more people aware, that can't do anything about it, improve the situation? Or is awareness pointless because of ho…

Anger is an appropriate reaction to dishonest behavior

If you or someone you know was in the science fair, or you were involved with it somehow. Maybe if you users just really invested in science fairs, those are all reasons to be angry. But if you are like most, this has no impact whatsoever on you or your life. At most this should provoke a shrug, a head shake, and a “that’s not right, I hope they do something.” From the vast majority of people.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#62

Post by npinsker »

rblatz wrote: post #61
tonymet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anger is an appropriate reaction to dishonest behavior

If you or someone you know was in the science fair, or you were involved with it somehow. Maybe if you users just really invested in science fairs, those are all reasons to be angry. But if you are like most, this has no impact whatsoever on you or your life. At most this should provoke a shrug, a head shake, and a “that’s not right, I hope they do something.” From the vast majority of people.

I think it’s fine to be angry at the world when frauds are rewarded and celebrated. It’s not a victimless crime, and if you wish for the world to be a meritocracy, it feels like a slap in the face.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#63

Post by thaumaturgy »

This is pretty similar to some fraud in professional science that's more common than it should be. A few people have started to make it a hobby to detect copy-and-pasted and altered images in published research:

Fabrication discovered in prominent Alzheimer's research: https://www.science.org/content/article/potential-fabricatio...

"Sleuths" uncovering fraud and getting retractions for thousands of papers: https://apnews.com/article/danafarber-cancer-scandal-harvard... and https://www.newyorker.com/science/elements/how-a-sharp-eyed-... and https://retractionwatch.com/2022/07/22/papers-in-croce-case-...

So I'm dismayed but not surprised that the incentives driving fraud in research science are trickling down into pre-college science fairs. A cynical person might conclude that we're just training the next generation of scientists to be better at fraud.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#64

Post by blululu »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #60
zachlatta wrote: post #23

It's frustrating that we encourage fraudulent behavior for the college application process. I blame the judges, and college admissions departments. It orients the entire USA public education system around training sociopathic behavior into teenagers. We tell young people the best way to get ahead in life is through exaggerating. Then we train them to do it in their college essays and extracurriculars. Gross.

We need lottery based admissions. Let schools set a minimum test score, and anyone over that goes into lottery for admissions. Kill off essays, extra curriculars, club sports, summer programs, AP tests, Legacy admits, early applications, and let kids have some life again.

This feels fair. I would personally be totally in favor of nationalizing college admissions along such lines. Every school is given a fixed number of admits/waitlists and these are then allocated by lottery based upon such rudimentary qualifications. The federal government could easily force the issue by tying federal funds to a unified national admission scheme (They did this back in the 60's to eliminate men's colleges).

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#66

Post by Ekaros »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #60
zachlatta wrote: post #23

It's frustrating that we encourage fraudulent behavior for the college application process. I blame the judges, and college admissions departments. It orients the entire USA public education system around training sociopathic behavior into teenagers. We tell young people the best way to get ahead in life is through exaggerating. Then we train them to do it in their college essays and extracurriculars. Gross.

We need lottery based admissions. Let schools set a minimum test score, and anyone over that goes into lottery for admissions. Kill off essays, extra curriculars, club sports, summer programs, AP tests, Legacy admits, early applications, and let kids have some life again.

I recommend some type of testing. Even subject specific.

And for most desirable institutions just outright auction for certain amount of spots. Let the rich bid for spot and the money spend to subsidise others.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#67

Post by ipython »

Many, many years ago I participated in ISEF, so this is personally disappointing to me. I'll echo some of the sibling comments about the difference between kids who did the project alone versus parents/lab mentors who ... ahem ... contributed significantly to the project. In contrast, my project was entirely self-made and therefore not very impressive, but it had some gimmicks in how I presented it which managed to impress judges at the school and regional levels, enough to send me to ISEF.

ISEF was an amazing experience, especially as a kid from a school that was nothing special. Our school was so excited that they hired a public speaking specialist to work with me to prepare. Looking back, that training in public speaking directly contributed to many successes in my career decades down the line. Plus the experience of going to ISEF still brings back positive memories. I never felt like I belonged - there were some amazingly smart kids there - but the social camaraderie and the ability to meet kids that thought it was cool to be smart was eye opening.

As far as "making mistakes when you're 17" - yeah, I made mistakes then too, but I certainly paid the price for them. Especially when you make conscious decisions to defraud and falsify, if these allegations can be proven. There should be serious consequences for this.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#68

Post by bimguy »

snickerbockers wrote: post #30

>Everyone makes mistakes — Lord knows I did plenty of stupid, immoral things when I was 17 — and there is always the opportunity for growth and redemption. when did the definition of 'mistake' change to encompass actions done on purpose? a mistake is when your data is invalid because you did the math wrong, not when all your data is simultaneously false and plagiarized. i don't mean to disagree with the notion that h…

I believe you're confusing "mistake" with "accident".

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#69

Post by alfalfasprout »

tomcam wrote: post #54
uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

Yep and this is a big problem. Because while the fraud in this article was clear cut… in many other cases there can be significant misrepresentation about the student’s actual novel contributions.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#70

Post by vsnf »

tomcam wrote: post #54
uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

> Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities.

This has been a meme/running gag in countless sitcoms and Sunday morning newspaper comic strips for as long as I can remember. Not the Asian community part, just the 'parents actually doing the work' part. The joke is typically about overly competitive middle class suburban fathers juxtaposed against their children who have better things to do than care about dorky school projects.

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