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The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

jakeseliger.com

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#61
This article circumscribes but fails to navigate the imperatives of life which sanity must regard as beyond the purvey of reason.

The question writ large but not asked is "What constitutes medicine?" versus all the other ways that we struggle to manage the messy and painful nature of life.

What hits me about the author's dialectic— and also the bulk of these comments— is the unexamined pre-disposition towards a calculus of life in place of a spiritual reckoning of its mystery. Such reckoning need be nothing more than a conscious observation of life's ultimate mystery; "conscious" in the sense of allowing this observation to inform the dialectic.

Regarding overt libertarian political jabs at Greenpeace or the FDA, the author fails to regard the the major purpose of policy is to restrain activity that causes general harm, not advance activity that leads to individual prosperity.

The author is facing the final conflict of every individual, that he shall meet his end in some fashion not of his own choosing with a dialectic of choice. This mode of discourse is internally unreconcilable.

If there's any credence to the observation of 5 stages of grief, this article is locked at the bargaining stage.

But so is the entire financial intelligence system: being incapable of recognizing nor authorizing the obvious dimensions of life beyond any calculus.

Here the true libertarian must acknowledge the limits of his discourse and turn attention to making the most of his circumstances, in which he has every right and responsibility to seek a path of his own, subject to a principle of freedom most succinctly stated as the liberty to do what you have to do, informed by a rich social tapestry of relationships all of which, if sane, must recognize the afore mentioned strange, yet obvious, dimension of life that manifests as a surplus beyond any a-priori design intention.

Where this article informs its readers of specific constraints in the author's experience and story of his path, it is truly valiant and valuable.

Where it digresses into observations about policy I find haphazard generalization from the specific.

What stands out is our culture's unrelenting bias towards reason over the unreasonable.

A mind wiser than mine has observed that today's science has quietly replaced any hope for an intelligible world with theories that are intelligible, with the attendant consequence to reason, that life may be beyond our "scope and limits" as grammatical creatures, and I will add to this my thought that we require a philosophy of the unknowable that let's us continue to explore the world's mystery in a way that nurtures a decent life, given our limits.

It's not paradoxical that social policy attempts to restrain us from the misfortunes that attend an "anything goes" California-ideology mindset in the interest of preventing harm from radical experimentation.

It's ok if the progress of the human condition takes longer than our own lives. We can become adapted to our nature.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#62
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the unhealthy diet is the fundamental reason, not cooking food at high temps. "The amount of vitamin C retained from raw potatoes varied according to the method of cooking, e.g. about 80% for potatoes boiled in skin and about 30% for hash-browned potatoes." Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03155...

Both of those are at the low end of cooking time * temperature. Mashed potatoes provide essentially zero vitamin C same with many potato soups. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170699/n... 365 calories of raw potatoes have 155% of your daily vitamin C requirement. A 365 calories serving of French fries has ~9% of your daily vitamin C requirements. Of course the cooking oil is part of that differenc…

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Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And fear. Our culture is not good at death. Thanks for the book recommendation, definitely going to pick this up! Edit to excerpt a great review from Goodreads: "If you think you might get older as time goes by and/or think you might even die at some time (or have relatives or other loved ones to whom this might apply), I urge you to read this book."

It would great if we had a better culture around dying. My parents are in their 90s. When I get to the senior home they live and talk to people it’s pretty clear that it would often be better if people could just say “enough is enough” and go out with dignity and respect. A lot of people there just live day by day and wait for it to be over.

> it would often be better if people could just say “enough is enough” and go out with dignity and respect

My father desires this. He was a nurse for much of my life. He is adamant about two points in regards to his death and the events leading up to it:

1. He will never become a burden.

2. He will not die in a hospital bed.

He believes that when it is his time to go, then it is his time to go. No point in delaying the inevitable. As a nurse, he has seen many patients receive treatments and the outcomes/prognosis that results from said treatments. Based on many of the stories I have heard through out my life, I think I can greatly sympathize with his views. Though, I myself am a bit too neurotic about death to have such a view.

My father has stuck to his guns though. He's in his 70s. Annual checkup? Doesn't do them. He doesn't even know nor care about his blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.. Routine colonoscopy? Never had one.

He's told me since I was young, "The day I can't tie my own shoes is the day I'm calling it quits." I seriously believe him and I have the utmost respect for him too.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#64
post #7

"The future, which distinctly though barely missing, is going to be brighter than the present." This one hit pretty hard. I am not a cancer patient who is missing a life saving treatment by 10 years, but it does feel like we are living in a sort of liminal space between religion and technology. Sure we have iphones and Netflix but we all still work 40-50 hour weeks. ChatGPT seems nifty but if I break my arm they will…

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Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#65
post #39

Keeping anybody alive is worth it. The human species became a civilization only because it kept its then-unproductive weaker members alive - which allowed it to develop learning, technology, and all the things that revolve around them. Even before that, it was able to survive and exist as a physically weaker species by taking care of and keeping alive its sick and wounded. This shows how destructive capitalism is: In…

Capitalism is the engine that has lifted more humans out of poverty than any other. Countries which have embraced that fact have been better places to live than others. Cost/benefit analysis of medical treatment for the terminally ill does not suggest capitalism is "destructive".

> Capitalism is the engine that has lifted more humans out of poverty than any other. Countries which have embraced that fact have been better places to live than others

Capitalism didn't lift anyone out of sh*t. In its heyday people were living and dying in industrial slums at a ripe old age of 40. Only after the USSR won Ww2 instead of 'crumbling down like a house of cards' how the capitalist press was expecting before the war that the sociopaths in the West had to give concessions to their people to compete with the Eastern Bloc so that the people wouldn't overthrow them.

When the USSR dissolved, they declared 'We won', and they started taking back all of those concessions. As a result, there are countries where people are killed if they cant pay for healthcare now.

> Cost/benefit analysis of medical treatment for the terminally ill does not suggest capitalism is "destructive"

It does.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#66
post #39

Keeping anybody alive is worth it. The human species became a civilization only because it kept its then-unproductive weaker members alive - which allowed it to develop learning, technology, and all the things that revolve around them. Even before that, it was able to survive and exist as a physically weaker species by taking care of and keeping alive its sick and wounded. This shows how destructive capitalism is: In…

> Keeping anybody alive is worth it. This might be true on average. But if you need to spend $1 million keeping a death row inmate alive who tried to commit suicide, that money might be better spent on infants with heart defects. Money being finite (and being an abstraction of medical equipment/expertise/hours which are also finite), you ultimately have scenarios where you have to choose one or the other. > This show…

> But if you need to spend $1 million keeping a death row inmate alive who tried to commit suicide, that money might be better spent on infants with heart defects. Money being finite (and being an abstraction of medical equipment/expertise/hours which are also finite), you ultimately have scenarios where you have to choose one or the other.

These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities and then imposes these as truisms. There is more 'money' in the capitalist west than what's needed to treat every single person living there. Its just being hoarded.

> In the United States, insurance companies are heavily regulated, and premiums must reflect how much it costs to pay out claims, plus some small percentage for overhead. Nor do the hospitals themselves strictly seek profit... their adversarial relationship with insurance companies compels them to overbill in the theory that if one claim fails, the next can succeed... so price it for both.

You are talking literal nonsense. The most expensive healthcare with the worst results on the planet is in the US. Statistically. Every argument you made above is null and void.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keeping anybody alive is worth it. This might be true on average. But if you need to spend $1 million keeping a death row inmate alive who tried to commit suicide, that money might be better spent on infants with heart defects. Money being finite (and being an abstraction of medical equipment/expertise/hours which are also finite), you ultimately have scenarios where you have to choose one or the other. > This show…

> But if you need to spend $1 million keeping a death row inmate alive who tried to commit suicide, that money might be better spent on infants with heart defects. Money being finite (and being an abstraction of medical equipment/expertise/hours which are also finite), you ultimately have scenarios where you have to choose one or the other. These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities and th…

> These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities

If capitalism causes scarcity, then surely socialism/communism is the true champion in this game. Scarcity of things that shouldn't be scarce in anyone's most wild imagination. Food, clothing, minor comforts like entertainment. Power, water, you name it.

>There is more 'money' in the capitalist west than what's needed to treat every single person living there.

Because the money is the abstraction of any valuable thing. Some billion-dollar-valuated company has an abstract value of a billion dollars... but that doesn't mean there is a billion dollars worth of food to feed the hungry, or a billion dollars worth of clothing to clothe the naked and ragged. Somehow though, this really drives the economically-illiterate into lunatic rages... the idea that there is a mechanism to measure the value of such things.

> You are talking literal nonsense. The most expensive healthcare with the worst results on the planet is in the US.

Sure, and you don't even understand why. If you wanted to make it cheap, you'd outlaw insurance and make everyone pay for their care out of pocket. Prices would crash within days, weeks at most. That sounds crazy to you though, because you don't understand economics very well.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#68
post #4

I recommend anyone who is interested in this area read "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End" by Atul Gawande. Not just for the financial aspects, but an overall deconstruction of the broken end-of-life care system in the country. By making "extend one's life for a few days/weeks by any means necessary" as the gold standard for good medical care, we have lost sight of what healthcare should actually be…

I think a huge part of it isnt even corporatism, but social and cultural avoidance and fear of death. US culture, the only one I claim to speak for, is in denial about death. We hide it away, pretend it wont happen, and then when it does, we lie to the children and try to suppress it ourselves. We drag death out medically, and then have no time to be with the dying. Doing this leads to not only neurotic choices from…

> culture ... is in denial about death. We hide it away,...

Karl Ove Knausgaard starts one of his books off by talking about this exact thing. He made an interesting observation about how we seem to try to keep death at or below ground level (a morgue will never be on the second floor) - literally but also figuratively.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you need to spend $1 million keeping a death row inmate alive who tried to commit suicide, that money might be better spent on infants with heart defects. Money being finite (and being an abstraction of medical equipment/expertise/hours which are also finite), you ultimately have scenarios where you have to choose one or the other. These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities and th…

> These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities If capitalism causes scarcity, then surely socialism/communism is the true champion in this game. Scarcity of things that shouldn't be scarce in anyone's most wild imagination. Food, clothing, minor comforts like entertainment. Power, water, you name it. >There is more 'money' in the capitalist west than what's needed to treat every single perso…

> If capitalism causes scarcity, then surely socialism/communism is the true champion in this game

Socialism/communism is the 'champion' of that game because whenever any country tried it, the entire 'free world' united first to sanction them, then to wage economic war on them, then to outright bomb and invade them to destroy them.

Its amazing how socialism/communism fails every time, but every time it fails, it requires blockade, sanctions, economic warfare or outright bombing and invasion to fail.

...

Despite that all those socialist/communist systems have lifted hundreds of millions, even billions out of actual poverty and in contrast with capitalism, the 'prosperity' that was brought to their people was not the privilege of working 14 hours in factories 7 days a week and living in industrial slums to die at a ripe old age of 40. Soviet Union rose their people from living barefoot in mud huts to apartments, from illiteracy to space age within the SAME generation. China's success is even more spectacular because its systematic - they do iterative development to raise the standards at every level for everyone.

And yet, on the other side, where the supposedly prosperous capitalism stands, we have people who are suffering hunger, without being able to feed their kids while working in multiple jobs, 99% not being able to own a house and dying when they cant pay for healthcare.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/americas-dirty-little-secret...

https://watcher.guru/news/us-housing-99-americans-cannot-aff....

Nobody is sanctioning the US. Nobody is waging economic warfare against them. Nobody bombed them. Nobody invaded them. This is what capitalism did to the US.

> Because the money is the abstraction of any valuable thing. Some billion-dollar-valuated company has an abstract value of a billion dollars... but that doesn't mean there is a billion dollars worth of food to feed the hungry, or a billion dollars worth of clothing to clothe the naked and ragged. Somehow though, this really drives the economically-illiterate into lunatic rages...

The only lunatics are those who don't understand that behind that billion dollar valuation, there exist the means of production to feed, clothe, house and educate everyone as all of those 'failed' socialist/communist systems demonstrated by lifting their people out of poverty within the same generation immediately after taking them over.

> Sure, and you don't even understand why. If you wanted to make it cheap, you'd outlaw insurance and make everyone pay for their care out of pocket. Prices would crash within days, weeks at most. That sounds crazy to you though, because you don't understand economics very well.

Yeah, this is what the rest of the world did. Because they don't 'understand economics' well. That's the reason why they have less expensive healthcare systems with better results. Because 'they don't understand economics'.

Being stubborn in defending an objectively worse result by declaring the entire world but yourself as 'lunatics' who don't understand something is the most lunatic thing someone can do.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#70
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are fallacies of the capitalist ideology - it creates scarcities If capitalism causes scarcity, then surely socialism/communism is the true champion in this game. Scarcity of things that shouldn't be scarce in anyone's most wild imagination. Food, clothing, minor comforts like entertainment. Power, water, you name it. >There is more 'money' in the capitalist west than what's needed to treat every single perso…

> If capitalism causes scarcity, then surely socialism/communism is the true champion in this game Socialism/communism is the 'champion' of that game because whenever any country tried it, the entire 'free world' united first to sanction them, then to wage economic war on them, then to outright bomb and invade them to destroy them. Its amazing how socialism/communism fails every time, but every time it fails, it requ…

It is not true that China increased the standard of living of its people despite sanctions: they did it because the US removed the sanctions: restrictions on trade started to loosen in 1972 (after Nixon's famous trip to China). By 2000, China enjoyed what Washington calls "most favored nation" status, and its only been in the last 7 years or so that Washington has started to restrict Chinese trade again.
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