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Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

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Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#61

Post by snowpid »

alephnerd wrote: post #60
snowpid wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people move from US to Europe https://stateofeuropeantech.com/talent And this proofs the point that income isnt the only metric for emigration.

And most skilled (for the sake of this convo STEM) immigrants immigrate to North America and have done so for decades [0] [0] - https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/7938614756940962...

The state of European Tech is about STEM. Do you think they talk about American uneducated refuguess stranding on the European shore?

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#62

Post by alephnerd »

snowpid wrote: post #61
alephnerd wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most skilled (for the sake of this convo STEM) immigrants immigrate to North America and have done so for decades [0] [0] - https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/7938614756940962...

The state of European Tech is about STEM. Do you think they talk about American uneducated refuguess stranding on the European shore?

1. I don't appreciate that tone.

2. I have literally provided a peer reviewed paper proving my point, and I can provide a second one as well [0].

It's a well documented trend, and I myself can confirm this within my family, and multiple others in a similar boat.

I'm not saying Western Europe is bad, but the kind of pipeline that exists in much of North America isn't as robust in Western Europe.

Plus the absolute number in the trade paper you provided is ~10k arrivals and ~6k departures from Europe, which is a drop in the bucket in absolute terms compared to North America. Just with EB-2s alone (one of the multiple types of visas for STEM talent) you are seeing 90k approvals a year.

[0] - https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/22-047_b5373e6a-...

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#63

Post by ryathal »

arp242 wrote: post #31
yurishimo wrote: post #13

I certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution? Populations are shrinking and to keep the economy in a healthy place, money needs to come from somewhere. The easiest solution is to add bodies via immigration. Otherwise taxes need to go up or governments need to spend money incentivizing people to start f…

There are degrees of things; "too much immigration" does not mean "no immigration". And of course populations don't need to keep growing indefinitely for a "healthy economy"; that's just not mathematically possible. So we need to be able to deal with non-growing or even shrinking populations anyway. And I do think "how much migration is too much migration?" is a serious question worth asking; there's a big difference…

Almost no one is talking about no immigration beyond a tiny fraction on the right and a larger faction on the left using it as a motte and bailey to support unlimited migration. A bigger issue is immigration via refugee status, as the people claiming asylum range from actual victims to economic migrants, and the amount of support needed is often far greater than other types of migrants.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#64

Post by snowpid »

alephnerd wrote: post #62
snowpid wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of European Tech is about STEM. Do you think they talk about American uneducated refuguess stranding on the European shore?

1. I don't appreciate that tone. 2. I have literally provided a peer reviewed paper proving my point, and I can provide a second one as well [0]. It's a well documented trend, and I myself can confirm this within my family, and multiple others in a similar boat. I'm not saying Western Europe is bad, but the kind of pipeline that exists in much of North America isn't as robust in Western Europe. Plus the absolute numb…

I really like to read my provided source instead complaining about the tone. Your first provided source is outdated (ca. 2016), your personal view has a bias and selection effect ("US is the best country in the world", you are surrounded by people preferring US and money), I couldnt find the data, you argue for, in the second source (you can give a page number), and my thesis was: It is not only about money. If so, Europe would have an outflow to US. It does not despite lower income. So other factors in migration matter. What is your problem about this statement?

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#65

Post by alephnerd »

snowpid wrote: post #64
alephnerd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I don't appreciate that tone. 2. I have literally provided a peer reviewed paper proving my point, and I can provide a second one as well [0]. It's a well documented trend, and I myself can confirm this within my family, and multiple others in a similar boat. I'm not saying Western Europe is bad, but the kind of pipeline that exists in much of North America isn't as robust in Western Europe. Plus the absolute numb…

I really like to read my provided source instead complaining about the tone. Your first provided source is outdated (ca. 2016), your personal view has a bias and selection effect ("US is the best country in the world", you are surrounded by people preferring US and money), I couldnt find the data, you argue for, in the second source (you can give a page number), and my thesis was: It is not only about money. If so, E…

The State of Europe report only further validates my core thesis:

> A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL

The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point.

Pre-tax TC is only 2-3x more in the US than much of Europe, and QoL doesn't change drastically, so there's no reason for Europeans techies to immigrate to the US or vice versa based on salary alone.

This is a similar story for techies in other markets like China, SK, Taiwan, and India preferring to stay put instead of immigrating to much of Western Europe, because it's a 1-3x TC bump compared to a 3-6x TC bump going to North America.

As tech salaries in those countries rise, then increasingly techies won't leave those countries either unless a drastic TC change is provided.

And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America.

And no, pointing out Varadkar, Sunak, and Costa are of South Asian origin; Yeşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin; etc doesn't fly.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#66

Post by mytailorisrich »

trueismywork wrote: post #27
elevader wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only really talk about Germany here, the perspective might be different in other countries. The big challenge is the large number of people coming in, both from legal and illegal immigration. Our system simply can't deal with it. Ideally you would get these people out of the asylum centers (might be the wrong term, no idea) and into jobs so they can actually start living and integrating here. But the harsh real…

I feel a lot of this comes from a big resistance to change. Germany tries to take in all immigrants and make them fully German without any trace of their original culture (not socially, but economics wise etc). And that creates huge tension. In my mind, Germany needs to decide which of those various aspects of culture are important and then focus on them, and allow for diversity in other parts.

But why should they change? Ultimately immigrants need to assimilate. Maybe not the first generation but the second generation should be assimilated.

People always talk about integration but that's easy. Assimilation is the harder goal.

This highlights the key, difficult issue with immigration into Europe: people from vastly different cultures and religion who don't assimilate even in some cases at the third generation. But it's very difficult to openly discuss this because anyone who dares say, for example, "there are too many muslim immigrants" is immediately piloried and so the debate is poisoned.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#67

Post by mytailorisrich »

arp242 wrote: post #31
yurishimo wrote: post #13

I certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution? Populations are shrinking and to keep the economy in a healthy place, money needs to come from somewhere. The easiest solution is to add bodies via immigration. Otherwise taxes need to go up or governments need to spend money incentivizing people to start f…

There are degrees of things; "too much immigration" does not mean "no immigration". And of course populations don't need to keep growing indefinitely for a "healthy economy"; that's just not mathematically possible. So we need to be able to deal with non-growing or even shrinking populations anyway. And I do think "how much migration is too much migration?" is a serious question worth asking; there's a big difference…

The topic has not been "hijacked by right-wing firebrands". It's just that they are the only ones still raising the issue openly.

Somehow the mainstream parties and especially the left have shifted from anti-racism to a blanket and absolute "immigration is good" and "all refugees welcome" consensus (and not only that but in some cases a stance that more diveristy should actually be encouraged) and anyone raising concerns is indeed labelled as "right-wing" or "far-right", which is not helpful at all.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#68

Post by snowpid »

alephnerd wrote: post #65
snowpid wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like to read my provided source instead complaining about the tone. Your first provided source is outdated (ca. 2016), your personal view has a bias and selection effect ("US is the best country in the world", you are surrounded by people preferring US and money), I couldnt find the data, you argue for, in the second source (you can give a page number), and my thesis was: It is not only about money. If so, E…

The State of Europe report only further validates my core thesis: > A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point. Pre-tax TC is only 2-3x more in the US than much of Europe, and QoL doesn't change d…

" The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point. " Well the report stated otherwise but I guess you do selective reading, right? ;)

" And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America. " Just a casual reminder that 50 % + Americans voted for Trump while many European countries have a way smaller right populist movements. India and China also have very racist governments. And again Europe has an influx of tech workers so I guess, your pointed out factors are not the only ones that matters.

" eşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin " I'll ask my Turkish friends I meet casually in Berlin.

From my site I learned again. Americans think they are the best country in the world while seing not the problems of their new home.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#69

Post by oliwarner »

yurishimo wrote: post #13

I certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution? Populations are shrinking and to keep the economy in a healthy place, money needs to come from somewhere. The easiest solution is to add bodies via immigration. Otherwise taxes need to go up or governments need to spend money incentivizing people to start f…

> Populations are shrinking

No. Populations are predicted to shrink. The current observed population is still growing.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#70

Post by mcntsh »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #55
mcntsh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which generous financial supports are you talking about?

Extended maternity/paternity leave (especially in Sweden), child benefits (especially Poland), tax exemptions (e.g Hungarian income tax), subsidised or free childcare and more.

Parental leave in Sweden is 80% of your salary and maxes out at 2500 a month for both partners... In Germany it maxes out at 1800. These aren't incentives since you'd be LOSING money by taking parental leave...

> child benefits

120-180 EUR a month per child doesn't even cover half the costs of a child.

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