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The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

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Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#61

Post by paulpauper »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7
Imnimo wrote: post #4

I don't buy a lot of this analysis. >This week, for instance, Google — despite probably being the most progressive or Silicon Valley company, nevertheless fired dozens of employees involved in pro-Palestine/anti-Israel protests that resemble those on university campuses. I find it extremely hard to believe that Google is going to start not wanting to hire MIT grads because MIT has a protest encampment. This sort of t…

> hard to believe that Google is going to start not wanting to hire MIT grads because MIT has a protest encampment There was a time when Google wouldn't consider a candidate if they weren't from MIT. The loss of that monopoly is the point. You aren't disadvantaged going to MIT today relative to a few decades ago. You're just not as relatively advantaged as you once were.

You're just not as relatively advantaged as you once were.

I disagree. A falling acceptance rate suggests it's more elite, not less.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#62

Post by paulpauper »

pietz wrote: post #48

Excuse my ignorance but was it ever about the higher level of quality in education with the schools? I honestly thought the "getting in" aspect was the most important one.

this is true. hard to fail but way very hard to get into Harvard.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#63

Post by [deleted] »

afavour wrote: post #13

I think I agree with Nate’s advice (skip the Ivies, go to a good state school) but I don’t agree with the reasons why. I don’t think elite private colleges are losing esteem at all (the recent noise about pro-Palestinian protests will be forgotten five minutes after they stop, just like all the other campus protest movements in decades past, this isn’t new!), I just think the economic argument is getting harder and h…

[deleted]

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#64

Post by ken47 »

If they're losing esteem, it's because of the purity of education is fading. First, tuitions are becoming outrageous. The mixture of profit motive and higher education has an unpleasant odor.

Then, there are the numerous academic integrity scandals among now-infamous scholars at Ivies or similar, such as Marc Tessier-Lavigne, Dan Ariely, etc., and a general feeling that the overwhelming pressure for novel discoveries / getting published in a big journal is undermining scientific progress.

Also, there is a perception that students are increasingly selected for reasons other than academic merit, e.g. family name / an ancestor who was an alumnus, big donations, athletic vs. scholarly ability, and so on. Rich parents buying their kids' admissions through sports "recruitment" was particularly egregious.

Asian students with perfect SAT's and AP/IB-loaded 4.0+ GPA's being rejected for "non-racist" "reasons," as revealed by "Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard" and other top-tier American universities was a cherry on top.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#65

Post by TeaBrain »

sandspar wrote: post #51

I'm reading the comments here and it's remarkable how few people seem to have felt the vibe shift. The vibe began shifting like a year and a half ago and it's getting more widespread by the day. Zoomer males, future leaders, are thinking very different thoughts from the rest of society.

The vibe shift from whom? The ivy league acceptance rates have continued to trend downward over the last decade because more gen z are applying every year.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#66

Post by paulpauper »

bruceb wrote: post #3

When the richest and most powerful start sending their kids to public school then I might believe this. Until then the title makes for good clickbait but nothing believable. This tweet I read earlier today lays out the case: "The best reason to go to a top 10 American university: In a random class you'll have a governor's daughter, the son of a billionaire and two guys with 170+ IQ. It's a hell of a group of people t…

Until then the title makes for good clickbait but nothing believable.

This is much of Substack alt-center/centrism these days. Big claim in title for virality, walks back claim in article or gives unrelated or unsupported evidence to back up claim.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#67

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Imnimo wrote: post #14
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard to believe that Google is going to start not wanting to hire MIT grads because MIT has a protest encampment There was a time when Google wouldn't consider a candidate if they weren't from MIT. The loss of that monopoly is the point. You aren't disadvantaged going to MIT today relative to a few decades ago. You're just not as relatively advantaged as you once were.

I'm extremely skeptical that this shift has anything to do with protest encampments and coddling concerns.

> skeptical that this shift has anything to do with protest encampments and coddling concerns

I am as well. I'm less sceptical of (a) the partisan shift in the value of elite education and (b) the effect per se.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#68

Post by smt88 »

afavour wrote: post #13

I think I agree with Nate’s advice (skip the Ivies, go to a good state school) but I don’t agree with the reasons why. I don’t think elite private colleges are losing esteem at all (the recent noise about pro-Palestinian protests will be forgotten five minutes after they stop, just like all the other campus protest movements in decades past, this isn’t new!), I just think the economic argument is getting harder and h…

The closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War, and people didn't quickly forget it.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#69

Post by JumpCrisscross »

threeseed wrote: post #52
nostromo wrote: post #47

It's kinda crazy just how untouchable Israel is in the US politically. TikTok can spread all sorts of craziness amongst America's youth for years -- but the second politicians find out it's being used to oppose Israel's actions in Gaza, it's banned by congress and the president (which is of course still pending). Ivy Leagues can spend years promoting very radical ideas and kicking out people left and right for wrongt…

TikTok isn't banned. They are just being forced to operate it as a US company. And given we have whistleblowers who say they were providing information to the Chinese government and odd data like below it doesn't seem particularly unreasonable. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMAVQ5VXsAE1weD?format=jpg&name=...

> They are just being forced to operate it as a US company

They are being strongly encouraged / coerced to operate as a non-Chinese controlled company. If they were controlled by a company in France, India or Brazil, that would be fine.

Failing that, TikTok would be removed from app stores (and U.S. hosting). They are still free to do business in America. And TikTok.com will cleanly resolve. (Unlike e.g. Facebook in China.)

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#70

Post by JumpCrisscross »

paulpauper wrote: post #61
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard to believe that Google is going to start not wanting to hire MIT grads because MIT has a protest encampment There was a time when Google wouldn't consider a candidate if they weren't from MIT. The loss of that monopoly is the point. You aren't disadvantaged going to MIT today relative to a few decades ago. You're just not as relatively advantaged as you once were.

You're just not as relatively advantaged as you once were. I disagree. A falling acceptance rate suggests it's more elite, not less.

> A falling acceptance rate suggests it's more elite

Applications have grown faster than population for decades [1]. Proxying selectiveness with acceptance rates is just marketing.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/04/09/a-majorit...

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