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Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

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Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#61

Post by ChubbyGlasses »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #3

> The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough. You just need to read another 50,000 word fasterthanlime essay. Then you'll not have problems any more. > That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you g…

This was my biggest problem with rust, the community is, at a surface level friendly, but the moment you try to say something against the grain you get met with some of the most insufferable people ever. I tried to mention a problem with a lint on the official forms and the replies were so condescending (from regulars at that too). And at no point did they try to understand the issue, they just assumed I was dumb/new/doing something wrong.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#62

Post by sanderjd »

_eojb wrote: post #27

This is a very brave post to write given how incendiary responses to rust criticism can be, but this matches my experience entirely.

I think I just read about 10 versions of this comment on this page, and definitely not a single response to the criticism that could be described as incendiary. I don't think I even saw a single comment just now that fundamentally pushed back on the premise of this article, let alone in an incendiary way. It's early yet, and maybe this thread will look very different in a few hours though?

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#63

Post by cmrdporcupine »

School-Cotton wrote: post #31
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work fulltime in Rust (embedded stuff) but actually think the "everything else" influence into Rust is stronger than the systems stuff, and it's harming the ecosystem. Just try finding e.g. an MQTT or WebSocket or etc library that doesn't drag the whole mammoth tokio ecosystem (which is really geared for Web Scale! projects) in with it. Rust is becoming the language that tokio ate, and Cargo/Crates.io the new NPM.…

I used Rust professionally up until this year (since before async landed) and IMO you've hit the nail on the head. The shoehorning of async into the language and ecosystem seemed to be driven by the belief that if Rust can't attract Go or Python developers then it will fail. In fact Rust was doing fine in its niche attracting C++ developers and trying to make it everything to everyone has diluted what was great about…

Just like C++, teams will end up having to carve out a sane subset comfortable for their domain.

For myself that's looking more and more like:

Ditch crates.io (and maybe even Cargo), carefully curate and vendor all dependencies.

Probably avoid async, but definitely avoid tokio.

Don't get excessively clever. (Here I think Rust does a better job of C++ of having good "community standards" already)

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#64

Post by cmrdporcupine »

chimen wrote: post #59
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... complains about people using tropes and tired cliches in posts while using the worst of them, themself

I do not complain. I've seen this trend multiple times by now. First time was with Ruby on Rails I think [1], then the cancer that led us to write JS to output HTML and all the good stuff that came and still manages to pour from npm. Every now and then you can spot the "fashion" out of these things. Rust is good and has earned its place. I just despise cult-like followings for these languages and technologies. [1] ht…

There's no need for you to blather about "woke" and drag in US culture wars nonsense. It's distasteful, glib, and frankly not very intelligent, and just subtracts from whatever your point was.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#65

Post by nu11ptr »

brabel wrote: post #58
nu11ptr wrote: post #19

As much as I love Rust I sometimes wonder if I'd be more productive in a simpler language. If I wrote it every day I'm not sure that would be true, but as a hobbyist coming back to Rust sometimes takes me a bit to get back in the zone. Also, still not a fan of async, as it is woefully incomplete and fairly complicated in some use cases. That said, I just can't go back to Go with nil pointers and lack of decent enums/…

Maybe people will make fun of me, but I've been very happy with Kotlin and Dart. Null-safe, good ergonomics, very fast. I've tried Rust, sometimes play with C, D, Deno/TS, Nim, Java (actually I still write lots of it) and even some more cutting-edge stuff, like Unison. While they're cool, what I want is a language with really good tooling that gets out of my way without letting me write patently dumb code (like Java…

I'm glad you found tools/languages that work for you. Kotlin felt a little too much like Java to me. If I stuck with a JVM lang. I'd probably go back to Scala 3, but I just don't like the JVM as a user (just sucks too many resources).

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#67

Post by chimen »

cogman10 wrote: post #42
_eojb wrote: post #27

This is a very brave post to write given how incendiary responses to rust criticism can be, but this matches my experience entirely.

> incendiary responses to rust criticism can be I've not experienced this. Do you have examples of the rust community flaming someone for having negative opinions about the language?

[flagged]

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#68

Post by andrepd »

nu11ptr wrote: post #19

As much as I love Rust I sometimes wonder if I'd be more productive in a simpler language. If I wrote it every day I'm not sure that would be true, but as a hobbyist coming back to Rust sometimes takes me a bit to get back in the zone. Also, still not a fan of async, as it is woefully incomplete and fairly complicated in some use cases. That said, I just can't go back to Go with nil pointers and lack of decent enums/…

Rust is in a separate class of go and swift and kotlin and etc. The class it competes on is pretty C, C++, and itself.

Yes it's easier to write trivial code in python than Rust. Yes it's harder to manage memory manually than it is to let a gc handle it. I don't see the point.

Rust is a systems programming language. It's hard to write a server in it than it is to hack something in node, but it will also be faster and more reliable. Conversely, it's easier than writing it in C++ or C, while still being more reliable. That's the whole value proposition.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#69

Post by cultofmetatron »

Pxtl wrote: post #47
kleiba wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, nice one! :-) (can only assume you're joking)

Since every other language now has higher order functions and lexical closures and things like that Lisp isn't as special as it used to be. Now it's mostly just a really ugly version of those languages but with a weird emphasis on recursion and a very fancy macro facility. I find I can move between dynamic languages and Scheme pretty easily.

as someone who writes elixir all day, I really love what lisp is but I feel lisp's major weakness is that it makes everythign unergonomic in order to make macros very ergonomic. You will never find another language in which writing macros is easier. the problem is it comes at the cost of doing everything else a bit of a pain in the ass.

I love elixir because it feels like the syntax clojure would have if it had a syntax imho.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#70

Post by akavi »

BoorishBears wrote: post #23
nu11ptr wrote: post #19

As much as I love Rust I sometimes wonder if I'd be more productive in a simpler language. If I wrote it every day I'm not sure that would be true, but as a hobbyist coming back to Rust sometimes takes me a bit to get back in the zone. Also, still not a fan of async, as it is woefully incomplete and fairly complicated in some use cases. That said, I just can't go back to Go with nil pointers and lack of decent enums/…

Isn't that just Swift/Kotlin?

It's any of:

Rust + (garbage collector)

Swift + (cross platform support)

Kotlin + (proper pattern matching)

Unfortunately, none quite hit that central sweet spot, IMO

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