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The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

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Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#61

Post by nextos »

AlbertCory wrote: post #58

A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain…

Spain does not have any mafia-like structures. Modern mafia emerged in Sicily long after Spain (actually Aragon) were gone, probably because of many different factors.

One should not forget the Kingdom of Two Sicilies was quite wealthy and advanced at the time of the Italian Reunification, but crumbled shortly afterwards.

There was a big wealth transfer South to North. Nonetheless, it's still a lovely place.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#62

Post by xandrius »

_3u10 wrote: post #60
xandrius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?

Who takes more of your money to provide protection from not paying your tax? Mafia or government?

Is that the vital distinction between mafia and government for you?

For me, if taxes are used for the society as a whole and not pocketed by a small elite, I'm totally ok to pay them.

But the higher the taxes, the better the quality of the services/infrastructures I expect.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#63

Post by costco »

Simon_ORourke wrote: post #2

Both in Palermo and in Naples, the business activities of the mafia can be categorized as extremely short-sighted profit squeezing, which I suppose is all you might expect from organizations operating mostly outside the law but with a firm grip on their respective societies (a bit like Google/Meta/Tesla I suppose).

It seems like Sicily is an experiment in what happens when you let a few thousand people intimidate the rest of society into letting them cut in line and cheat on a grand scale. I bet the average person's cost of living and taxes are probably at least 5% higher than they otherwise would be as a result of extortion fees, cleanup costs from illegal dumping, VAT fraud, cartel/monopolistic behavior, etc.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#64

Post by em500 »

specialist wrote: post #46
samuelec wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

Regarding Berlusconi from a far, I thought "Thank god nothing like that could happen here (USA)." Ahem. There are so many obvious parallels between Berlusconi and one of own, I can't fathom why it hasn't been discussed. (Maybe it has; I mostly tuned out our kayfabe for my mental health.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/opinion/the-trump-berlusc...

"Nobody who knows Berlusconi and has watched the rise and rise of Donald Trump can fail to be struck by the parallels."

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#65

Post by frankohn »

AlbertCory wrote: post #58

A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain…

I am from Sicily, near Palermo. In my humble opinion the main reason of emergency of Mafia was injustice and bad government, most prominently from Bourbon family but also from previous kingdoms. When there is injustice and bad government you learn to despise the authorities and the laws and your priority is the survival.

Sicily was great when it was governed by the Normands but that didn't last for a long time.

I live now in Switzerland and I am studying its history. It seems one of the reason of Switzerland prosperity and order was they never got a prince or a king but cities were autonomously governing themselves.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#66

Post by skrtskrt »

AlbertCory wrote: post #58

A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain…

The South being considered an actual part of Italy is a pretty new concept and not completely accepted by either the south or the north.

The north is sophisticated, cosmopolitan, industrialized, and has tons of arable farmland and just generally money running through it. Culturally it's more French / white European.

The south has very little arable land, it is rocky and hilly. It does not lend itself well to large-scale agriculture. It was largely ruled in a feudal system for a very very long time, which then collapsed into the peasant families each being given land ownership of plots too small to sustain a family.

It has also been a target of conquering by Greeks, Ottoman Turks, and many many many more cultures due to its critical location for shipping lanes - so it's been sort "ran over" too many times to count.

The fact that the real power structure has turned over so many times has led to lots of very very localized, unofficial power structures that represent sort of local "fiefdoms" which exist outside of the modern governmental structures. Subsequently, it has built its own mythology of being "unconquerable" or "ungovernable" and not really a part of "Italy" - where "Italy" is seen as an outside power which builds into the mythology that helps the mafioso gain and retain control.

Edit: for very enjoyable (and highly regarded) novel that gets at the mafioso / Southern mythology about this, I highly recommend Black Souls.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#67

Post by jajko »

lelanthran wrote: post #15
skrebbel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it

> This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you? >> It's not exactly the same, because >> If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. >> I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rul…

> Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you?

Well, all of it. You put mafia folks into realm of rationality, when we know from numerous accounts (as in thousands and more) that they are extremely emotional, do stupid things and fuck up almost everything they touch, even their own future. Smart criminals behave very differently, its more about negligence and lack of efficient state counter-measures that allowed them to exist and thrive.

Now when we talk about mafia I grant 1 exception - current calabrian mafia (one and only Ndrangheta) is so good at money laundering that other crime syndicates globally pay it a fee to launder their money, this outsourcing is more effective and cheaper than homemade solutions. I think last time I checked it was maybe 100 billion USD business yearly.

Ndrangheta is so good they are spread like cancer through most Europe, even ie Switzerland ain't immune to them. In eastern part of EU they corrupt poorer places like Slovakia directly via governments and prime minister and don't even hide it very much, and steal and wash most of money via massive EU development funds. There is absolutely nobody there who doesn't know about this scheme running for at least 15 years and various other schemes ie endless highways building which cost 3x as much as in Germany with terrible resulting quality, and so on... tells you something about society and why capable folks often just leave and never come back, but getting off topic here.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#68

Post by lelanthran »

jajko wrote: post #67
lelanthran wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you? >> It's not exactly the same, because >> If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. >> I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rul…

> Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you? Well, all of it. You put mafia folks into realm of rationality, when we know from numerous accounts (as in thousands and more) that they are extremely emotional, do stupid things and fuck up almost everything they touch, even their own future. Smart criminals behave very differently, its more about negligence and lack of efficient state counter-measures that allow…

> Well, all of it. You put mafia folks into realm of rationality,

That's not what "pro-mafia" means.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#69

Post by frankohn »

skrtskrt wrote: post #66
AlbertCory wrote: post #58

A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain…

The South being considered an actual part of Italy is a pretty new concept and not completely accepted by either the south or the north. The north is sophisticated, cosmopolitan, industrialized, and has tons of arable farmland and just generally money running through it. Culturally it's more French / white European. The south has very little arable land, it is rocky and hilly. It does not lend itself well to large-sc…

I agree with your analysis but Greek weren't merely conqueror, they are part of Sicily because they established themselves there and remained. Large part of Catania and Syracuse are of Greek ascent.

About the arable land, I don't know, Sicily is extremely fertile in general and there also some large plains as well like in Palermo. Sicily was extremely rich and prosper during the Normad period and for the Arabs who came before it was nothing short than a paradise.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#70

Post by smsm42 »

hellerve wrote: post #11
davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

I recommend visiting the Ecomuseo in Palermo [1] if you ever have the chance. They examine, among other things, the lasting impact of the subpar building of now mostly crumbling structures by the Mafia that still litter the cities of Sicily. Yes, the mafia built housing, but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like. Of course, the city of Palermo is also EXTREMELY densely populated—…

> but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like.

It may be not what we hope for, but isn't it pretty much the same as what happens when the government builds it? I mean, the "projects" aren't exactly the shining example of what "we might hope for" either. It looks like this way of solving the problem is bound to fail whoever tries it - be it the well-intentioned government or the mafia.

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