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Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

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Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#61

Post by nyokodo »

hammock wrote: post #36
jedberg wrote: post #32

What's most interesting is that this wasn't on party lines. The yes/no mix is very mixed party-wise. https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...

Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

> crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

It’s not controversial to suggest that the interests of the political class, the special interests that fund their campaigns, and Washington bureaucrats differ from the interests of the public at large. You don’t need to evoke deep state conspiracies to explain nefarious coordination because when career and monetary incentives align then bills like this one get passed.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#62

Post by akira2501 »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #3

Does anyone want to suggest some reasons why, the one thing that D+R always, always, always agree on is this: US Gov/LEO/IC must be gifted the most power possible to surveil Americans who are not suspected of a crime

Corruption of our intelligence agencies to the point they've been weaponized against our own elected officials.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#63

Post by tastyfreeze »

borkt wrote: post #59
geuis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving…

> used for self-serving purposes

That is inevitable. If there is an easier path to a goal some human will use it. It doesn't matter if the goal is against the people.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#64

Post by twoodfin »

mise_en_place wrote: post #46
verdverm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware the alternative is less oversight? FISA protects Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...

The alternative is requiring a warrant, which means following the Constitution. Due process doesn’t disappear because you want it to. Even if someone is supposedly a terrorist or criminal.

If you’re hoping the Supreme Court, and in particular this Supreme Court, is going to agree that the Constitution requires the executive branch get a warrant before spying on cross-border communication with a non-citizen, you’re going to be disappointed.

FISA is Congress exercising the only authority it has here, which is oversight & regulation. You could argue FISA should be stricter, but it can’t extend the Constitutional reach of the Fourth Amendment, nor can it contract it the way many in this thread believe it’s somehow doing.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#65

Post by [deleted] »

nyokodo wrote: post #61
hammock wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

> crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc It’s not controversial to suggest that the interests of the political class, the special interests that fund their campaigns, and Washington bureaucrats differ from the interests of the public at large. You don’t need to evoke deep state conspiracies to explain nefarious coordination because when career and monetary incentives align then bills like t…

[deleted]

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#66

Post by AnimalMuppet »

hypothesis wrote: post #54
verdverm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have things a bit backwards. Without FISA, the intelligence agencies have less oversight and fewer restrictions. > The FISA resulted from extensive investigations by Senate Committees into the legality of domestic intelligence activities. These investigations were led separately by Sam Ervin and Frank Church in 1978 as a response to President Richard Nixon's usage of federal resources, including law enfor…

> Without FISA, the intelligence agencies have less oversight and fewer restrictions. What restrictions are you talking about? Constitutional warrant requirement was sidestepped using this law and you are still cheering here.

Well, before FISA, constitutional warrant requirements were not sidestepped, they were simply ignored. So now we're acknowledging that the constitutional requirements are still there, but now we use this weird dodge to get around it. So is that better or worse?

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#67

Post by [deleted] »

stanford_labrat wrote: post #52
hammock wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

Because in reality the two party system is not accurate. It’s rich versus poor, those with power versus those without. Nobility versus peasants. That’s just how it works.

[deleted]

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#69

Post by soraminazuki »

geuis wrote: post #45
verdverm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware the alternative is less oversight? FISA protects Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

Agree with the sentiment, but spying capabilities have been abused before FISA, just ask Martin Luther King Jr. So I don't think things were particularly fine before 9/11 either. It's just that technological advancements have made abuse on a mass scale possible for the first time in human history. AFAICT surveillance used to be much more targeted and labor intensive. That all changed after 9/11.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#70

Post by unethical_ban »

borkt wrote: post #59
geuis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...

2008.

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