Funny that anyone would point to icing a detached limb as a solution for the ones still attached.
Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
61–70 of 72 posts
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surprising that this fact is being often overlooked in this thread. If you're in a multi-day golf tournament for example, an ice bath for immediate recovery and lack of hypertrophy is exactly what you want.
And why do golfers not want hypertrophy exactly?
They do sometimes - like when they're trying to gain strength. At other times, recovery is more important than growing stronger (like during a tournament).
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18296750 : > This article examines how faith in science led physicians and patients to embrace the low-fat diet for heart disease prevention and weight loss. Scientific studies dating from the late 1940s showed a correlation between high-fat diets and high-cholesterol levels, suggesting that a low-fat diet might prevent heart disease in high-risk patients. By the 1960s, the low-fat die…
Thanks for the link. My understanding is that fats are more energy dense than simple carbs, and therefore eating high-fat diets is more likely to cause weight gain. The article is interesting, but it seems to take for granted that this isn't true. Are there any evidence-based studies you can link?
The reason I posted that article is because it summarizes how there has been a huge shift in thinking since the low-fat craze. I don't think it takes anything for granted, and I wasn't looking to argue for a particular point of view. I'm sure you can find studies about a specific topic as easily as I can.
Re caloric density: it's true that fat has more cal/g than carbs or protein. But, people do not eat a fixed mass of food per day -- the satiety of the food they consume influences this. Insulin response also affects weight gain and satiety.
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's because the body's initial response is often way out of proportion. I get the flu and my body decides to turn up the heat. There's pollen in the air and my nose goes into lockdown for weeks. I've dislocated my kneecap a few times and the near-immediate swelling was much worse than the actual injury. Recovery took a few weeks anyway so easing my discomfort for a couple of hours made no difference.
my comment is limited to "acute, traumatic soft-tissue injury", the scope of which excludes viral infection, allergic reaction, and strict joint injury.
> my comment is limited to "acute, traumatic soft-tissue injury", the scope of which excludes viral infection, allergic reaction, and strict joint injury.
The point is that evolved responses don't always properly account for nuance or proportion. If inflammation evolved for large traumatic injury, it may still be triggered for limited soft tissue injuries but then the response could be disproportionate.
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's because the body's initial response is often way out of proportion. I get the flu and my body decides to turn up the heat. There's pollen in the air and my nose goes into lockdown for weeks. I've dislocated my kneecap a few times and the near-immediate swelling was much worse than the actual injury. Recovery took a few weeks anyway so easing my discomfort for a couple of hours made no difference.
my comment is limited to "acute, traumatic soft-tissue injury", the scope of which excludes viral infection, allergic reaction, and strict joint injury.
Those examples were more about the body's tendency to overdo its response.
(But aren't joint injuries usually soft-tissue as well? It's the ligaments that get the short shaft.)
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#66I suppose it's related, that for athletes, ice baths after exercising are to be avoided because they hinder hypertrophy.
I'm not sure there is a consensus on ice baths at this stage? Some athletes swear by it, some say it's useless, and last I looked at it the science was ambivalent (somewhere between small to no effect, either positive or negative).
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#67This is a weird article / statement. RICE, afaik (former doctor here), was never about prolonged use for healing. The intent is to mitigate the harms of the initial excessive inflammation/swelling response (which threatens to compromise tissue at the peak of the injury event), by dampening this response via cooling / constriction of blood vessels. But, absolutely, after this has settled a bit, you're supposed to appl…
As a patient, in the past I've absolutely been directed to ice injuries for weeks. (Not so much in the last ~10 years, as the world caught up to the fact that this was a bad idea.) Sources like the Red Cross or WebMD article on RICE[0] _still_ recommend it for at least 48 hours after a minor injury, even though this has been debunked. So I think it's good that the Wikipedia article emphasizes that the protocol is out…
I had a knee injury just this February and I was instructed to cool my knee with ice for weeks (I don't think they meant it constantly - but at least from time to time).
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#68Declared unsuitable in 2014 after 30+ years, and I'm just now finding out.
I feel a bit like Woody Allen in Sleeper...
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ice is good for muscle recovery immediately after strenuous activity . Within minutes is best, up to an hour or so is still effective. After that you need warmth. Strenuous here means lifting your one rep max, running 20 miles, breaking a personal best sprint time, that sort of thing. I can attest from personal experience that ice bath right after exercise works in these cases. I’ve even tested it by icing just one l…
I think the idea is that you performed the exercise to create stress that you want your body to respond to by getting stronger / more aerobically fit etc in some way. So by icing, yes, you recover better, but by reducing the stress you reduce the adaptations. Imagine you could perfectly recover with some intervention. Then weight lifting no longer works! For examples like the ones you listed, peak performances where…
Yep, this is exactly the point I was getting to.
The stress response is literally the point of working out, you won’t get adaptation without stress.
Sometimes that’s undesirable, ie if you’re in the middle of a competitive league and need to reduce stress post-game. In which case, ice away.
Re: Ice to treat soft-tissue injuries contraindicated by creator of protocol
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the idea is that you performed the exercise to create stress that you want your body to respond to by getting stronger / more aerobically fit etc in some way. So by icing, yes, you recover better, but by reducing the stress you reduce the adaptations. Imagine you could perfectly recover with some intervention. Then weight lifting no longer works! For examples like the ones you listed, peak performances where…
> and maybe even have to perform again soon after, it makes a lot of sense to do anything to recover quickly For running specifically I’m not trying to make my legs stronger, I’m improving cardio. I need the legs to be in good shape for tomorrow’s hard run :)
In running specifically you need the stress to drive adaptation in the muscle such as capillarisation.
If you’re icing after you run you’re missing out on the benefits of the run.