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EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

europe.autonews.com

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Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#61

Post by robertlagrant »

klaustopher wrote: post #13
constantcrying wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's crazy to me, gasoline is so much more expensive than electricity, why wouldn't people charge the batteries more often? Of course any sane person would want to charge their car electrically. So I can only imagine that the inability to do so is the problem. My guess would be because many people can't. In most European cities having a dedicated place to charge your car is not affordable to most people. Which is…

To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage ... There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. Even many supermarkets offer fast chargers now, so that during your grocery shopping trip you can get most of your charging needs covered. There's plenty of opportunities to charge yo…

> To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage

That's because we don't need to. ICE is predicated on filling up every 1-4 weeks. EV is predicated on charging overnight.

> There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas.

But..where do you charge overnight? That's what the previous poster is saying. If you can't afford it, or you live in an apartment, what then?

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#62

Post by jajko »

klaustopher wrote: post #13
constantcrying wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's crazy to me, gasoline is so much more expensive than electricity, why wouldn't people charge the batteries more often? Of course any sane person would want to charge their car electrically. So I can only imagine that the inability to do so is the problem. My guess would be because many people can't. In most European cities having a dedicated place to charge your car is not affordable to most people. Which is…

To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage ... There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. Even many supermarkets offer fast chargers now, so that during your grocery shopping trip you can get most of your charging needs covered. There's plenty of opportunities to charge yo…

Nope, not even in Switzerland its good enough and covered enough. Maybe for some folks, but not good enough for others.

What I see is how rich folks buying these (since these have TCO cost 2-4x as much as buying a solid used car every 10 years and servicing that with a good non-brand service, ie good BMWs are great at this) end up being proverbial slaves to their cars. Effin' car, like we are not enslaved with enough gizmos. Additional mental calculations compared to owning ICE cars re range if your commute is in tens of kms and not merely kms, forced to do stops on longer routes as car needs, not as the people riding it need.

I see it as adding tons complexity into our lives, and we are working hard on opposite direction.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#63

Post by vel0city »

izacus wrote: post #38
DarkNova6 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it depends on where you are living. While cars in urban areas are a definite luxury, not having a car is the luxury outside of cities. No amount of incentives and enhancements of public transportation will ever fix this issue for sparsely populated areas. You can try to reduce exhausts and travel distances with car, but you can't fight car ownership. My parents live in such an area and they can commute…

I don't get these kinds of arguments. Even if rural areas still use cars, reducing pollution in urban areas (the ones, you know, most populated) still brings massive improvements to everyone (if nothing else, the ruralites aren't stuck in traffic as much when they inevitably commute into cities) and has very measureable health benefits for everyone in the cities. Where does this silly idea that "let's use more public…

"Urban" in the US doesn't mean a dense city where mass transit makes sense. Loads of areas in the US are "urban" but due to design are practically entirely car dependent. Houses are in seas of single family homes with large lots. Stores are islands separated by massive parking lots. Bolting on a bus service to those designs means driving tons of empty busses (lots of different routes because things are everywhere) and long walks (everything is an island) to connect to things.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do mass transit. I like it, I want to see more of it. But thinking it's just a matter of buying more busses isn't reality for a lot of the US. We pretty much need to redesign our cities and towns for transit to be successful. Rug-pulling people by building out transit-unfriendly cities and then banning cars isn't going to go over well.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#64

Post by cjrp »

Neil44 wrote: post #24

I have a BMW PHEV, so much depends on your use cycle and whether or not you charge it. I have cheap electricity from 12:30am to 4:30am for charging every night. If I just do the school run and a trip to the shops in it I would never need petrol. But in the winter I can't get to the office and back on electricity only which is a shame. If I never charge it it works as a normal hybrid and I get low 40's UK MPG, which i…

What's the effective MPG using it the way you do?

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#65

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

katsura wrote: post #18
sp332 wrote: post #4

"these vehicles are currently not realizing their potential, largely because they are not being charged and driven fully electrically as frequently as assumed" That's crazy to me, gasoline is so much more expensive than electricity, why wouldn't people charge the batteries more often?

I made some back-of-the-napkin calculations, and based on the electric range and outside charging prices it didn't seem like electric cars are really that much cheaper. The only time they clearly come out on top is when you can charge them at home at off peak hours, at least around here. PHEVs are in an even worse situation because even though they have a small battery, they need to be charged for quite some time, so…

Your back-of-napkin calculations must assume values for the price of gas and the price of electricity.

If, like in CA, gas is $5.46/gallon (ref. https://gasprices.aaa.com/) and electricity is $0.19/kWh (ref. https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/) then the equation looks very different from if gas is $4.74/gallon and electricity is $0.33/kWh like HI.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#66

Post by klaustopher »

robertlagrant wrote: post #61
klaustopher wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage ... There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. Even many supermarkets offer fast chargers now, so that during your grocery shopping trip you can get most of your charging needs covered. There's plenty of opportunities to charge yo…

> To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage That's because we don't need to. ICE is predicated on filling up every 1-4 weeks. EV is predicated on charging overnight. > There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. But..where do you charge overnight? That's what the previous…

You leave your car parked outside at a slow 22kW charger. But with a full BEV, you don't need to charge every night, just like you don't need to fill up your gasoline car every evening in your own garage.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#67

Post by kristo »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #33
throwaway63467 wrote: post #7

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

Unfortunately, it depends on where you are living. While cars in urban areas are a definite luxury, not having a car is the luxury outside of cities. No amount of incentives and enhancements of public transportation will ever fix this issue for sparsely populated areas. You can try to reduce exhausts and travel distances with car, but you can't fight car ownership. My parents live in such an area and they can commute…

Living in a sparsely populated area is the luxury here. You can live somewhere rural, somewhere small, but still within biking distance of everything you need daily and within train or bus of weekly needs.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#68

Post by sp332 »

klaustopher wrote: post #66
robertlagrant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage That's because we don't need to. ICE is predicated on filling up every 1-4 weeks. EV is predicated on charging overnight. > There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. But..where do you charge overnight? That's what the previous…

You leave your car parked outside at a slow 22kW charger. But with a full BEV, you don't need to charge every night, just like you don't need to fill up your gasoline car every evening in your own garage.

The article is specifically about PHEVs.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#69

Post by lorax »

I have a PHEV and charge overnight from a wall outlet. I wake up in the morning fully charged. Probably 99% of my trips are electric, but only 80% of my miles. The occasional long road trip really adds up. It is also hard (in the US) to charge on a trip. My car can't charge from a DC fast charger (it doesn't have the right connector), only from the level 2 AC chargers. From a L2 charger it only charges at 3.3 KW (most chargers support between 6.6-10 KW) which results in ~10 miles of range per hour. So if I take a half hour lunch break while driving, that's only 5 miles added.

If you can charge at home or work it's a great deal, but if you can't I can see how it would be hard to charge it enough to make it worthwhile.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#70

Post by FinnKuhn »

cyberpunk wrote: post #51
throwaway63467 wrote: post #7

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… None of it is about the environment.

my milk bottle caps (in Germany) are not attached to anything?
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