Live data from Hacker News

The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

drericlevi.substack.com

61–70 of 521 posts

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#61

Most of the issues mentioned in the article and the included email are concerning, however they also oddly seem to be common in many places across the globe. The surgeon mentioned was in Australia, I have seen these issues first hand in the Netherlands and am aware of very similar of the first 2 out of 3 issues (caused by overwork/understaffing/over-fatigue etc) in Belgium, Germany, the UK, India and god knows how ma…

The answer is implied, right there in the first paragraph: "... I’ve never been diagnosed with a mental illness."

At least in the US, there's a kind of masochistic pride in the physician community, that everything he described in his essay is laudable, noble, to be emulated. Nowhere does he acknowledge the risks to his patients or whether the costs are worth it in the end, or if a different system might be better. And he's holding up the lack of mental illness diagnosis as if it's something to be proud of, as opposed to never being diagnosed with say, cardiovascular disease or cancer. He's proud he's never sought help or tried to change anything. Sure he mentions problems with patient care in passing, but what he's really upset about is "just being another employee".

In the end in his mindset whatever he's complaining about is better than the alternatives, which is ceding over some of the care responsibilities to others or opening up healthcare to a more competitive market so he's not the only provider who could provide those services (note the comment about denying other physicians income). The AMA and physicians union (yes it's a union) basically guarantees this in lieu of having real competition, decreased income, and so forth.

Why is it different in something like aviation? My guess is because the failures are more visible, they're on the nightly news, people are there posting pictures on social media? For whatever reason, I don't think pilot organizations ever managed to remove themselves from scrutiny in the same way as physicians did. We see pilots as highly skilled professionals, but part of a system, with alternatives, and the subject of fair scrutiny from outsiders who are not pilots: engineers, safety experts, investigators and so forth. In my experience when these kinds of issues come up in healthcare though, everyone defers to physician groups themselves, as if no one else has expertise enough to scrutinize them.

I imagine too at some level, part of the issue is that the pilots themselves are subject to their own mistakes: if a pilot crashes a plane, they take themselves out at the same time. If a surgeon makes a mistake and kills a patient, they still walk home and can rationalize whatever they want, all they want.

I'm growing unsympathetic to these types of essays (the one linked). If physicians want me to empathize with them more, maybe they should stop stigmatizing mental unwellness and recognize it in themselves. Maybe they as a professional group should admit that others could take on some of the load, maybe even better in some situations. It feels a bit like they create a mess out of selfish greed or ego and then expect me to feel bad for them.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is, why is it okay for medical professionals to wear themselves down to the bone (sometimes literally, like in this article), while some other professions take care to avoid it? I think the answer here is that if you there aren't enough pilots, schedules can be reduced. You can't scale back (in any ethical way, anyway) the demand for healthcare. People will just die at a higher rate and outcomes will w…

Thank you for your comment, that's a very good point. I self-replied a bit lower with more discussion on this, primarily to the effect that the "solution" in that case would be to hire more doctors. The concept of a "standby" doctor (like a volunteer firefighter) could be used (more), for eg retired former doctors/nurses.

There is a lot of protectionism & abuse in the doctor system, to the point where I think common tropes are put as fronts to keep up a status quo to hide the reality. You have to look at actions vs. the statements at this point. "The purpose of a system is what it does"

Statement: We need more doctors in Canada.

Actions: It's much harder than 20 years ago to get into med school or a residency (USA medicare). It's even harder to go to med school in Canada than the USA! Doctors from other countries have much higher testing standards than local med school graduates in Canada to get licensed. To the point where they move to the USA because it's easier to start working than it is in Canada itself. Foreign Doctor moves to canada and becomes a taxi driver is a trope in Canada because of the excessively high barriers.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#63

I know America strictly limits the number of people who can become doctors every year. Does Australia have a similar system? It seems insane to me to first limit how many there can be, and then overwork the ones you do allow to become doctors.

Though significant restrictions on supply do exist, the problem does not seem to be nearly as bad in Australia as in the USA [1]. In Australia there's ~15 medical graduates per 100k vs ~8 in USA. The doctors in Australia are still definitely overworked though. A decent number of the people I went to school with became doctors in Australia, and though we work roughly the same number of hours (~60-70hrs/week), my work…

there's more than 12 times the number of people in the US. Yes i understand this is "per 100k", but this still kind of reads like "adding lanes to highways does not reduce traffic," and that means that there is some other issue. If you have more doctors, more people will go to the doctor. This is good, more people should go to the doctor, because early and preventative care reduces the overall cost burden on the system.

And i don't want to put this in its own comment or even continue reading the defense of doctors (as they stand now): Women get shafted so hard by the medical community. People with mental health issues get screwed by the medical system. Both get their problems written off for non-medical reasons. There are bad practitioners just like there are bad developers and bad general contractors and bad bridge builders and bad pilots. The whole system is not very good and i don't see, necessarily, how merely adding more medical degree holding people to the mix will improve things. There isn't enough patient advocacy, there's too much friction with medical insurance (in the US).

But at least the shareholders are making money.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's very easy! Just do things that prevent burnout ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8834764/ ) and the job gets more attractive, drawing more students and producing less attrition: - Valuing work gives meaning (money, appreciation) - Autonomy gives feeling of control - Managing burden prevents overwork, exhaustion and fatigue

> Sure, it's very easy! I have issues when someone says a complicated issue can be solved easily…realistic expectations…

"Easy to describe" is very different from "easy to do".

It reminds me of the famous "just eat less and exercise more", the alleged simple solution to the global obesity epidemic.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The understaffed healthcare system works with overworked doctors on the basis that having a tired and overworked doctor is a lot of the times better than having no doctor at all, because (s)he most likely can end up saving more lives than taking with their tired brain. If your operations have a 90% survivability rate it could still be considered a success despite those 10% they end up killing, because 90% is a lot be…

IMO this is doctors acting as enablers of a toxic administration. They need to refuse outright to not work crazy hours and force the system & administration to come to a crisis. The admins are not working those hours and thus do not feel the consequences of their actions and by enabling their bad behavior they are not getting consequences from their bosses, which are politicians and customers.

I think it's a matter of the 'tradinionalist' mindset in doctor education

most doctors will think "well, I went through a hardcore intesnse experience in medical school, therefore that's how it should be"

I'm saying they've normalized overwork as part of their specific subculture of modern medical professionals. they really believe they won't be as good doctors without this arguably abusive overwork system

it's yet another group of people who all belive in some form of the "no pain, no gain" mindset; the issue is these groups don't give nobody anything unless there's some harm or pain involved

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#66
post #31

This is what happens when everything is financialized. There is no reason that we should be running doctors into the ground. Health professionals are a necessity in a functioning society. I know in the US Government seems to have no problem throwing money at corporations and providing endless tax breaks. But god forbid we proved a functioning health system. For the US this needs to happen. 1) Medicare For All - a uni…

Public healthcare doesn't work.

They just get progressively worse and start adding expenses for the patients. The quality is terrible, despite the propaganda. The best companies were offering private healthcare with their offer.

I've seen it happen in two countries, now I live in one which just made most of private healthcare (which is excellent quality) available as public. It's working well for now but they're spending a ridiculous amount of money and it's not sustainable. Doctors are happy, I'm not because my taxes increased from 12.5% to 15%.

Public mismanagement is huge, they'll screw it up.

The USA government needs to stop being in bed with insurance companies to make everything expensive, then your private system will be fine.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#67
post #30

Something I've never quite understood is why, in the UK, we cap the number of medical students per year. I've known very bright people who aspired to be doctors but had their applications turned down only to go on to do phds and become scientists instead. I'd rather have twice as many doctors who work sensible hours rather than the status quo burn out. Looks like there are calls to change this. https://commonslibrary…

Artificially limiting the supply of doctors is one way of rationing healthcare and holding down costs. Healthcare in the UK is largely funded through the NHS. Voters are already financially struggling and don't want to pay higher taxes. In some cases, even emergency patients are waiting hours in ambulances because hospitals are so overloaded.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-68171254

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#69
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that is bollocks. That is the story most people believe, and makes for a convenient story for those people actually to blame. Funnily, it is also the story most doctors themselves seem to chose to believe in. First, those are not the only choices. There is also the the option of training and hiring more doctors. 2 Probably, there is also an option of making more efficient use of doctors time, but that one is m…

> Most of the work of doctors is not life-saving. Yes, but working out which parts are and aren't critical is the $64,000 question.

I think, that is a bit besides the point I wanted to make.

Yes, it is very hard to know a priori, what is life-saving, and what not. No, I do not wanted to suggest that the work of doctors it is not important.

The common understanding of doctors (their self-understanding included) is, that their work is very important, to the point that they exploit themselves. Or allow themselves to be "exploited".

In this forum, more commonly you have people here working on productive systems, which can empathize with the feeling the responsibility for the operations and not wanting to drop the ball.

People with that mindset think, they may safe a patient / the system, but working oneself to exhaustion won't solve those problems. And on the contrary, the exhaustion may be a contributing factor of making things worse in various ways. One directly by your actions, the other indirectly by covering up systemic problems.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#70
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that is bollocks. That is the story most people believe, and makes for a convenient story for those people actually to blame. Funnily, it is also the story most doctors themselves seem to chose to believe in. First, those are not the only choices. There is also the the option of training and hiring more doctors. 2 Probably, there is also an option of making more efficient use of doctors time, but that one is m…

>They have to "do more with less" (Not limited to public sector, see Boeing), and that works for a while, until it doesn't. Yes, which brings us back to the point I made about it being a numbers game. IF you start cutting back pilots sleep and planes' QA to boost profits, you'll reach the "it doesn't work" phase (planes dropping from the air killing everyone) much sooner and at a steeper rate than with overworked doc…

It's easier for the public to recognize and be outraged about 237 dead airline passengers compared to 237 dead patients even if both are caused by overtired pilots or "providers" (I hate that word for it's vagueness).
Post reply on HN