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What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

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Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#61

Post by goda90 »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #30

Hard to think of an argument why they shouldn’t be. You can argue the raw materials are something they can’t control but plenty of other industries have the same issue, real estate, hiring, and we still pay them on performance. Think we’d see accepting poor behavior, teachers writing off or actively bullying students tank if this were implemented properly.

A real estate agent or a hiring manager can still walk away from a really bad property, candidate, etc. A teacher can't walk away from a really bad kid (or really bad parents!) without leaving the profession entirely.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#62

Post by waveBidder »

brodouevencode wrote: post #27
dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.

when a metric becomes the target, it ceases to be a good metric

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#63

Post by skirge »

jmuguy wrote: post #32

More people need to be encouraged to become teachers - full stop. Its a valid concern that there are some teachers that are not good, and would be weeded out by performance based metrics. However - everyone else at the school knows who the bad teachers are. They're obvious. They're the ones leaving their class unattended. Doing the bare minimum. These people can't be weeded out right now because there's a shortage of…

Hire mature and experienced people as teachers. It is easy to assess someone mature based on their life achievements. No need to attract greedy ones as greed isn't the most desired competence for people who will work with children.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#64

Post by dwater »

brodouevencode wrote: post #27
dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.

If a teacher knows or suspects what questions will be on the test, they can drill their students to memorize the answers the week before the test. That's cheating and it doesn't matter who proctors the test.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#65

Post by jmuguy »

gadders wrote: post #42
jmuguy wrote: post #32

More people need to be encouraged to become teachers - full stop. Its a valid concern that there are some teachers that are not good, and would be weeded out by performance based metrics. However - everyone else at the school knows who the bad teachers are. They're obvious. They're the ones leaving their class unattended. Doing the bare minimum. These people can't be weeded out right now because there's a shortage of…

>>These people can't be weeded out right now because I thought one of the causes was unions? qv "rubber rooms" etc.

I'm speaking from the experience of being married to a teacher at a very large highschool in a medium sized city here in the US. In all the years of her talking to me about her work I don't think she's ever mentioned her union. Maybe she's just not at the admin level and dealing with it but given the number of vacancies at her school (which is considered one of the best in our city) - I don't even think the union is coming into play. They need staff.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#66

Post by lupusreal »

readyman wrote: post #31
azinman2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My fear as well. Is there a better way to assess teacher quality, especially in challenging student environments?

Don't assess teacher quality. Eliminate poverty by eliminating capitalism, a system that literally depends on it.

Assessing teacher quality sounds a lot less destructive. You know, fewer people getting summarily executed for "crimes" such as owning property, being disliked by their neighbors, etc. That kind of bloodshed is what makes commies so red.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#67

Post by dwater »

masklinn wrote: post #21
slibhb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the short term, this scheme might judt redistribute talent in ways that reinforce existing patterns of inequality. Aren't you assuming that rich districts with higher grades implement flexible pay? I think it would be the poor districts with worse grades that would be most likely to want to shake things up.

The main characteristic of poor districts is that they’re poor , which means they don’t have the means to implement high pay schemes. Rich districts do.

The school district I worked in had impoverished students but high per pupil funding, which is pretty common. What reinforced the inequality in that district was that teachers who were able to, self-selected to have the best behaved students, who were most likely to see improvements in test scores. The teachers who ended up with 90% of their students starting the year multiple grade levels behind and with severe behavioral problems would rarely stay in the classroom more than 2 years.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#68

Post by CoastalCoder »

readyman wrote: post #28
dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

The sick idea that profit is the onlyway to motivate humans is historically idiotic. It is an outcome of pathetic efforts to legitimate capitalism, a system of exploitation.

You were downvoted, but I think you're correct.

When I worked for the DoD, most of us were focused on doing the right thing for the country, and we worked diligently towards that.

The pay was mediocre, and potential performance bonuses were minimal.

But the job stability let us focus on the big picture, and we did.

I haven't worked anywhere else that had the same dynamic, even much better paying jobs in the private sector.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#69

Post by rrr_oh_man »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #20
pipeline_peak wrote: post #11

Is this a practical solution in America where taxes are more limited than other nations?

The implication being that countries with more taxes can afford to waste money by paying bad teachers well?

It’s the same logic as slashing your social security net because a fraction of a percent might abuse it.
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