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996 working hour system

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Re: 996 working hour system

#61

Post by stickfigure »

chihwei wrote: post #22

This is the reason why Chinese products are beating everyone else, and it's also a reason why we need to impose tariff on Chinese products made by workers in inhumane working conditions, e.g. 996.

> Chinese products are beating everyone else

I don't think this is true? And the trend seems to be down. Looking around me, my car, phone, home appliances, and most of my furniture were not made in China. My Macbook probably was, but I just read that Apple is moving some production to other countries (like Vietnam).

A lot of random things I own like hand tools were made in China, but they tend to be relatively low-technology products commonly manufactured in many places.

I could be an outlier; certainly there are many electronics items (screens, gaming devices, phones, etc) made in China. But it's not obvious that they're "beating" the competition. Would love to see meaningful statistics.

Re: 996 working hour system

#62

Post by marcosdumay »

logicchains wrote: post #33
porphyra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an East Asian cultural thing to work super hard for some reason, same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies, but by god I do wish I could work less.

>By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies Eastern Europe, the Middle East, South-East Asia, South/Central America and Africa all work much shorter hours than East Asian nations.

Also, at least South America is (very slowly) moving toward 4 days work weeks too.

Re: 996 working hour system

#63

Post by 404mm »

adamgordonbell wrote: post #10

So, I talked to someone who had worked at AliBaba for a bit (Son Luong Ngoc) and learned a lot. Some of the 996 is related to the company campus providing everything at a pretty low cost and a sort of presentism where being around is rewarded. All that plus the jobs are considered great jobs within China, and there is cut-throat performance competition process. Also, I think sleeping at work, taking a nap while waiti…

None of the “soft benefits” are even close justification for basically owning people’s lives. With one day of and 9-9 schedule, what is even the point of living? No time for hobbies, family or anything remotely enjoyable in life.

Re: 996 working hour system

#64

Post by adamgordonbell »

404mm wrote: post #63
adamgordonbell wrote: post #10

So, I talked to someone who had worked at AliBaba for a bit (Son Luong Ngoc) and learned a lot. Some of the 996 is related to the company campus providing everything at a pretty low cost and a sort of presentism where being around is rewarded. All that plus the jobs are considered great jobs within China, and there is cut-throat performance competition process. Also, I think sleeping at work, taking a nap while waiti…

None of the “soft benefits” are even close justification for basically owning people’s lives. With one day of and 9-9 schedule, what is even the point of living? No time for hobbies, family or anything remotely enjoyable in life.

For sure, It seems like a zero sum game that the firms encourage and then individual incentives do the rest. Like the fight to be partners at a law firm.

Re: 996 working hour system

#65

Post by xref »

404mm wrote: post #63
adamgordonbell wrote: post #10

So, I talked to someone who had worked at AliBaba for a bit (Son Luong Ngoc) and learned a lot. Some of the 996 is related to the company campus providing everything at a pretty low cost and a sort of presentism where being around is rewarded. All that plus the jobs are considered great jobs within China, and there is cut-throat performance competition process. Also, I think sleeping at work, taking a nap while waiti…

None of the “soft benefits” are even close justification for basically owning people’s lives. With one day of and 9-9 schedule, what is even the point of living? No time for hobbies, family or anything remotely enjoyable in life.

I would point out for centuries, I’m thinking at least through the Industrial Revolution, 10-16 hours was the norm and many families were still raised. And it was horrible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

Re: 996 working hour system

#66

Post by rexpop »

smallmancontrov wrote: post #21
rexpop wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think its kyriarch's ideas that drive oppression? The corporate egregore hungers for profit, and will squeeze every ounce of value from the world that's not nailed down, ie consciously resisted. The man has already heard of "longer working hours," and the only thing stopping their implementation is our self-respect.

Not just self-respect, law. In particular, FDR's New Deal. 40 hours, overtime, unemployment insurance, social security, right to unionize, and more. Capital interests have been working hard to erode these over the last 80 years with notable success, but the importance of legislative victories cannot be understated. Early 20th century labor relations were egregious all around the world, and they did not improve becaus…

Presidents rise on a tide of sentiment, not the other way around. That's my model, at any rate.

Re: 996 working hour system

#67

Post by toomuchtodo »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7
masijo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rest of world is moving toward 4-day work week Where, exactly, is this happening?

https://www.4dayweek.com/casestudies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39457728 ("HN: 4-day week made permanent for 89% UK firms who took part in Worlds biggest trial") https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/14/countries-that-are-embracing... ("4 countries that are embracing—or experimenting with—the 4-day workweek") https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/companies-around-the-wo... ("Companies around the world adopt four-day…

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/plainville-officia... (“Plainville officially implements 4-day workweek for town employees”)

Re: 996 working hour system

#68

Post by me_me_me »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7
masijo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rest of world is moving toward 4-day work week Where, exactly, is this happening?

https://www.4dayweek.com/casestudies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39457728 ("HN: 4-day week made permanent for 89% UK firms who took part in Worlds biggest trial") https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/14/countries-that-are-embracing... ("4 countries that are embracing—or experimenting with—the 4-day workweek") https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/companies-around-the-wo... ("Companies around the world adopt four-day…

100% disagree. If you actually look at what is happening in the world.

Firstly all tech companies are doing layoffs, meaning less jobs available -> harder to get jobs -> people are willing to work more/get payed less.

Both US and EU are aggressively pulling in muslim and african immigrants. Again creating pressures to find jobs. This time mainly in blue collar work.

This and cost of living ballooning I don't see how we are going toward 4day anything.

Its the opposite, the employers' position is strengthening and they will be squeezing the employees.

Re: 996 working hour system

#69

Post by me_me_me »

ta1243 wrote: post #15
porphyra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an East Asian cultural thing to work super hard for some reason, same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies, but by god I do wish I could work less.

We've had 45 years of GDP increase not being reflected in wages, who cares if the economy is "stagnant" if the people making it happen aren't seeing the benefit.

"See your boss ferrari? If you work really had he will buy himself a second one"

Re: 996 working hour system

#70

Post by me_me_me »

kstrauser wrote: post #16
KeplerBoy wrote: post #8

I just don't get how knowledge workers can slave away like that. I can be productive for 12-15 hours a day when the conditions are just right, but usually they aren't and after a few hours I need to switch to something less productive than actual coding. Do employers really see any measurable improvement in volume (let alone quality) of output after 30 hours a week?

They don't. It's visually impressive: look how hard we're all working! But it's impossible that they're getting more than a pittance of useful output after hour 50 or so. You've got a guy sitting at his desk at 8:55PM on a Saturday night. Impressive. We all know he hasn't been doing anything worthwhile since some time back on Thursday, and you've been wasting electricity on him afterward.

Its a knows patter in AAA games dev. People are pushed to work long hours, and the do perform maybe not at 100% but they do overproduce. However eventually they crash and burnout, then they get fired and replaced. Its a soul sucking industry that preys on positive, creative and idealistic people.

Because in corpo you are always easily replaceable.

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