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Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

wsj.com

61–70 of 712 posts

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#61

5 years ago, a family friend got an angry letter from the city because he had cleared slightly too much lakefront weeds (and by slightly - I mean very lightly, enough to anger the algorithm lightly). How did they know? Drone. And this was suburban Minnesota. Not even insurance - this was the city of Newport on a power rampage. Turns out there’s also no shortage of general corruption in the police department… https://…

rules are rules. you complaining about this is like football fans complaining about the tight offside calls.

Imagine if I put cameras all over a city that charged you $10 every time you exceeded the speed limit by 1 MPH. With an additional $10 fee for each additional MPH measure over the limit. Also, this is per camera, so if you pass 6 cameras on your commute going 70 in a 65, you’re getting a $300 penalty.

Rules are rules.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#62

I'm less concerned about the spying and more concerned about insurance companies arbitrarily non-renewing policies with no recourse for the consumer. Insurance is heavily regulated for good reason, and insurance should be a source of stability instead of anxiety.

This sort of opportunity to find a rationale for cancelling an individual insurance policy will inevitably by used for evil. See: Insurance Redlining.

Or you thought cancelling cable was hard now…

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#63
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live in CA? In recent years that's the majority of arbitrary cancellations I've heard about - companies pulling entirely out of CA.

Similar reports are coming out of Florida. Generally, it seems the industry is pulling away from higher risk to climate change issues from larger storms or fire risk.

Yea I think that is exactly correct

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, profits. How else are execs going to pay for that third vacation home?

Does that third vacation home get spied on from the sky as well?

I’m sure it does but he knows Bob and Bob can just flip a bit in a database to make it “compliant”.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#65

I'm less concerned about the spying and more concerned about insurance companies arbitrarily non-renewing policies with no recourse for the consumer. Insurance is heavily regulated for good reason, and insurance should be a source of stability instead of anxiety.

Thats exactly the problem with insurance.

If I have any sort of risk mitigation (file backup, fire alarms, spare tire, a generator, whatever) I can test that it works periodically. So I know I'm actually safe for the event.

For insurance, you can't know what bullshit they'll come up with to deny a claim when the time comes for it.

You're left with having paid for the insurance all that time for nothing! Much better to have put that money in a piggy bank instead.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#66

Vexcel doesn’t use drones. They use manned aircraft. Drones are almost never used for insurance. There are a couple of companies that do, but the costs are still too high for it to make sense.

I don't think the problem people have with this is the type of air vehicle used to take the picture

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#67
Insurance bothers me for a few reasons:

1. What pisses me off more than anything else, it enables fraud that otherwise wouldn't exist. People manufacturing calamities and then claiming insurance allows dishonest people to get ahead in life over people who are honest and concerned enough about the future to buy insurance. Additionally, insurance fraud is net bad relative to other types of fraud because it encourages criminals to manufacture damage that wouldn't otherwise happen.

2. There is an obvious incentive for them to chase an endgame of knowing exactly whether you will cost them money or make them money. When they attain this, insurance simply becomes a fortune teller and an instruction manual for Living Without Calamity. If you're denied coverage, you're going to experience something calamitous. If you're accepted, you have the ability to be fine and don't need insurance, unless you aren't sure how to Live Without Calamity. When you are accepted, you're only covered if you surrender your agency and follow their instructions for Living Without Calamity. Basic things like travelers insurance have clauses that void your policy if you scuba dive past 30 feet on your trip.

3. Insurance policies can create toxic incentives for people that hurt society. I filed a claim with Generali travel insurance because my host tested positive for COVID with a take home test, and I canceled my trip. Their web portal indicated that my claim had been received and was awaiting processing. I called incessantly to confirm my claim was good, and was not able to get an answer after several calls that routed through incompetent-by-design help desk employees and into a voicemailbox of a claims processor. Weeks go by and I receive a voicemail from the person I had been trying to contact telling me that I needed a doctor's note confirming that the person had COVID, and a take home test would not suffice. So, a company allegedly tasked with helping the public live safely wanted me to, at the time, ask my COVID infected host to waltz in to the doctor's office and spread around a pathogen that could kill patients. Nice. I guess they weren't medical insurance so they didn't care. And of course no doctor would retroactively go back in time and confirm that a person was positive for a sickness after they had already recovered.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#68
post #18

I'm going to assume that nobody's insurance premiums or deductibles are going down from this data. No analysis is making the insurer say "Oh, that roof is in much better condition despite its age." Insurance feels like the biggest scam in the history of the world. You are legally obligated to pay us for nothing, most of the time.

This doesn't make sense. If an insurance company wanted to charge higher premiums, they would just do so. They wouldn't need to spy on customers. The point of them trying to quantify risk as accurately as possible is to be able to extract profit while also offering competitive rates. It's the same as with any other company. They try and operate as efficiently as possible (ie. reduce costs) to try and make more profit…

Ah, classic mistake here.

If bargaining power is asymmetric between the insurer and the buyer, then the extra information is used for additional price discrimination (eg. Its better for you if the picture is never taken regardless who you are).

So the question is: does the insurer or the insured have the bargaining power here? Competition helps, but is only one part of it.

Seeing that insurers seem very profitable in the US, a decent proxy for bargaining power, I'd argue this is a bad thing for the consumer.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#69

I'm less concerned about the spying and more concerned about insurance companies arbitrarily non-renewing policies with no recourse for the consumer. Insurance is heavily regulated for good reason, and insurance should be a source of stability instead of anxiety.

Alright, I spent years working and building 0-1 insurance products. Let me peel back some stuff that’s been happening behind the scenes.

Some officials are elected and some are appointed which all depends on the state. Appointed officials are usually more reasonable and elected are not because higher rates = mad voters = re-election chances lower.

For a long time, insurers have struggled to get sufficient rate changes approved. A literal quote for you during Covid was, “Son, I’m looking out my window at downtown {city} and I don’t see many cars on the road. We won’t approve the rate increases.”

This was with actual data of losses increasing due to supply chain disruption of auto parts, labor increases and many more things.

We basically had to write policies and hope for the best despite knowing the data / trend lines forecasting major losses.

Fast-forward and what do you have - major losses by all of these companies - and so these companies have two choices: - Try to get rate approvals - Exit the market or line of insurance

For California, the latter is the better option because at least for auto you cannot use credit, telematics or other very predictive attributes to price the risk. This results in essentially pooled risk which in aggregate drives up rates for all. Simply put, California officials did this to themselves.

For other states, the first option works but the rate increases are now significantly higher because it was near impossible to get any adequate rate increases last few years.

So, the bill has come due and it sucks for everyone as it’s either a) higher prices or b) can’t get insurance (Florida folks for certain types) or c) limited suppliers not being able to get reinsurance to share the risk results in higher rates that customers can’t afford so they go without.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#70
post #22

I'm going to assume that nobody's insurance premiums or deductibles are going down from this data. No analysis is making the insurer say "Oh, that roof is in much better condition despite its age." Insurance feels like the biggest scam in the history of the world. You are legally obligated to pay us for nothing, most of the time.

Insurance carriers have an incentive to compete on price like any other business. There are plenty of options. The margins are generally pretty small, and there is a lot of regulation around what portion of payments must be used for claims. There's a few obvious exceptions, but plenty of insurance isn't required.

They might have an incentive to compete, but I think they also have an incentive to collude. Last time I shopped around for insurance it seemed like the latter was taking place.

You're required to get homeowner's insurance if you have a mortgage, and you're required to have car insurance if you want to drive a car on public roads.

So the majority of Americans are forced to purchase at least one of these in order to live their normal lives, which makes demand inelastic.

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