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Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

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Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#61
post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

> And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG?

To address this bit - the problem is (and I think you're actually trying to make this point) - we need biologists. We need physicists. We need material scientists. SaaS is sucking all the oxygen out of the room because the alternatives pay so much less. By the time this thing equilibrates, there will insufficient American institutional knowledge in core sciences.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#62
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't need H1Bs. We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. You need both. Your PhD classmates from abroad (most likely Russia, China, Korea, and India) would have gotten an H1B after they graduated from the PhD program, and their (edit: post-) postdoc employment would have been on an H1B. I'm assuming this was the late 1990s or early 2000s based on the numbers provided One of my friends who did their PhD and…

I’ve heard the path to getting a professorship in China after getting a PhD in the US was basically a sure thing, and could be used as a backup plan if the cushy US industry job path didn’t work out (or as a zero-risk plan if you wanted to move back home). Now, it’s the opposite; people with hard-to-obtain visas get stranded in the US because the job market back home is too competitive for them. This is great for Chi…

This is compensated by immigrants from other countries choosing to stay in the US.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#64
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't need H1Bs. We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. You need both. Your PhD classmates from abroad (most likely Russia, China, Korea, and India) would have gotten an H1B after they graduated from the PhD program, and their (edit: post-) postdoc employment would have been on an H1B. I'm assuming this was the late 1990s or early 2000s based on the numbers provided One of my friends who did their PhD and…

I’ve heard the path to getting a professorship in China after getting a PhD in the US was basically a sure thing, and could be used as a backup plan if the cushy US industry job path didn’t work out (or as a zero-risk plan if you wanted to move back home). Now, it’s the opposite; people with hard-to-obtain visas get stranded in the US because the job market back home is too competitive for them. This is great for Chi…

Lots of Chinese (like my friends) who studied in the US would have preferred to stay in the US, but began facing hurdles around employment, visas, and background checks.

The headaches became to much so they "decided" to move back to China because at least they could earn a US level salary, or move to Chinese adjacent countries like Singapore.

My friend did research in condensed matter physics with semiconductor applications, but no lab in the US would hire him due to National Security reasons. Now he works for an organization "supposedly" part of the Chinese MIC.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#65
Eric Weinstein has been complaining about this for a long time. [1]

Probably a result of the monopoly + monoculture of the higher education system. Universities love taking advantage of their postdoc and phd candidates. Thankfully, industry sometimes compensates the ones who justify higher market value.

[1] Listen to almost any bog podcast he has done.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#66
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you did a PhD in Biochemistry, you could make $100-200k a year plus stock working 40-50 hours a week at most working for Pfizer in Cambridge MA instead of earning around $60k working 50-60 hours as a Postdoc at a regional Boston based program like BU or Northeastern - you have to pay the same amount for rent and groceries, but you earn half as much and work much longer hours. I was recruited pretty heavily relati…

> I was recruited pretty heavily relative to my peers, when I finished up my biochem PhD When? Your numbers don't make sense in the late 2010s to present. Even my friends working as Sr Associate Scientists (BS only) for employers like Pfizer or Biogen are earning $100-140k base after barely 2 YoE, and younger friends and family of mine are getting $100-110k base for new grad roles now

Last year.

Take a quick look at Indeed:

https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=structural+biologist&l=Boston%...

Amgen, Senior Scientist - $125-$150

UCB, Scientist I - $96-$125

Noblis, Molecular and Cellular Biology Specialist - $109,100 to $190,900 with 8+ years of relevant experience.

Actalent, Sr. Engineer of Internal Cell Culture Development and Manufacturing - $80-$115

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#67
Obviously the solution is to pay them competitively.

But universities seem to reserve the good salaries for superfluous administrative staff and other dead weight business school positions.

But then again, who gets to write the budget and set salaries.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#68
I am a bit weird, because I have a regular software engineering job while also doing a part time PhD. I love my advisors, and I think the work I'm doing is pretty cool, but when my advisors asked if I was considering doing a postdoc after I finish the the PhD, I had to figure out a polite way to tell them "absolutely not".

I know not everything is about money, but fundamentally a regular industry job is just going to pay categorically better than nearly anything in academia. It's one thing for me to do the PhD for nights and weekends while taking home a yuppie software engineering salary because I want to formalize my "learning for fun", it's another for me to dedicate myself full-time to continuing the research for peanuts. It honestly kind of feels like a scam from universities; by definition, nearly anyone with a technical PhD is qualified for decent-paying work in industry, so the fact that universities pay so little for post-docs is borderline-insulting.

Bit of a personal anecdote on this:

I've not done a post-doc, but I used to work for a relatively prestigious private university in NYC as a "research scientist" [1]. I put "research scientist" in quotes, because that was my official title, but my work largely boiled down to software engineering, mostly JavaScript and a bit of Haskell. In 2015, I was being paid $90,000/year, which may seem like a lot of money until you realize that it's NYC; taxes and cost of living are pretty high. The university refused to pay any of my moving expenses, and they barely paid any of my health insurance (basically the bare minimum they were allowed to with the ACA).

For perspective, most entry-level software engineering jobs in NYC at the time were paying at least $120,000 even at startups, and big organizations were paying more like $130,000, and I wasn't entry level. I had been a senior-level engineer at my previous job in Dallas.

Upon moving to NYC, and starting my job, and having a fiance (now wife) that wasn't able to work at the time due to some visa issues, I was having a lot of trouble making ends meet, and I was having trouble paying rent [2] and medical bills. After three straight months of having to borrow money from my parents to cover my bills, I talked to the management team for the project I was working on, trying to explain to them that I was having a lot of trouble holding my head above water, I had maxed out my credit card moving to NYC and that they were paying well below market rates, so I would really just like an advance to at least avoid paying huge amounts of interest since they hadn't covered any relocation expenses.

Instead, I got a long, indignant response explaining how important the work they were doing was, and then told me that I should be grateful for even having the job, and that I was already being paid higher than [other person on team] who had been there longer, so I'll just need to figure things out myself. It really rubbed me the wrong way, because they acted like I was living this life of luxury when I felt like I was barely surviving, and they treated me like I was fucking Gordon Gecko for simply Googling "market rate for software engineers in NYC".

I eventually got laid off from that job (really fired, long story), and sort of swore an oath that I would never rely on academia as my primary source of income ever again. I've still done work for universites since then (I was an adjunct lecturer for a public university for about a year), but I always made it clear to them that I will be doing work for a private employer as my primary income.

A part of me loves academia, but they can be the embodiment of the "this is more than a job, it's a family" employer red flag.

[1] It's not hard to find my work history, so feel free to figure out which university with some clever searching, but I politely ask that you don't post it here.

[2] Before you give me a lecture, I wasn't trying to rent a luxury apartment in Greenwich Village, it was a pretty crappy apartment in Washington Heights infested with mold and mice. It cost me $2100/month in 2015.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was recruited pretty heavily relative to my peers, when I finished up my biochem PhD When? Your numbers don't make sense in the late 2010s to present. Even my friends working as Sr Associate Scientists (BS only) for employers like Pfizer or Biogen are earning $100-140k base after barely 2 YoE, and younger friends and family of mine are getting $100-110k base for new grad roles now

Last year. Take a quick look at Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=structural+biologist&l=Boston%... Amgen, Senior Scientist - $125-$150 UCB, Scientist I - $96-$125 Noblis, Molecular and Cellular Biology Specialist - $109,100 to $190,900 with 8+ years of relevant experience. Actalent, Sr. Engineer of Internal Cell Culture Development and Manufacturing - $80-$115

$16k PhD stipend in 2024?!?

Which program did you do your PhD at!!!!

Even UCSC has a stipend of $24k, BU a stipend of $27k, and UIUC a stipend of $25k.

No offense, but it's sounding like you attended a non-target program. At that point it absolutely makes sense to switch to software.

Also, you may need some hiring mentorship. Indeed is not the best platform for roles.

Also, Assoc to Sr Assoc is just 1.5-2 years so you are absolutely going to break $100k in 2 years

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year. Take a quick look at Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=structural+biologist&l=Boston%... Amgen, Senior Scientist - $125-$150 UCB, Scientist I - $96-$125 Noblis, Molecular and Cellular Biology Specialist - $109,100 to $190,900 with 8+ years of relevant experience. Actalent, Sr. Engineer of Internal Cell Culture Development and Manufacturing - $80-$115

$16k PhD stipend in 2024?!? Which program did you do your PhD at!!!! Even UCSC has a stipend of $24k, BU a stipend of $27k, and UIUC a stipend of $25k. No offense, but it's sounding like you attended a non-target program. At that point it absolutely makes sense to switch to software. Also, you may need some hiring mentorship. Indeed is not the best platform for roles. Also, Assoc to Sr Assoc is just 1.5-2 years so yo…

I was at an R1, public land grant university. By the time I realized how insane it was, I was close enough to graduating that I just decided to stick it out.

I wasn't a great undergraduate and didn't have the background I'd have liked for the field I went into. I took a gamble on myself and it paid off, but yeah, there are some PhD programs out there that do pay a bit more. However, I am aware of a couple that actually paid less.

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