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EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

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Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#61

Post by seanmcdirmid »

notamy wrote: post #6

> could be fined up to 10% of its worldwide turnover That "up to" makes me nervous that 10% won't happen, but I love the idea of smacking companies with real fines for not complying / maliciously complying with laws.

If they did 10% of global turnover, I'm pretty sure the US government would get involved, so I don't think Europe will go there. They would basically be starting a trade war.

> but I love the idea of smacking companies with real fines for not complying / maliciously complying with laws.

A lot of people don't, or to say, when you have extra-territorial penalties (we are going to fine you on all the money you spend), things get messy really quickly.

Apple can also always just exit the European market. At some point it makes no sense to be in it, and Europeans will simply buy their iPhones on overseas trips.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#62

Post by RetroTechie »

kutenai wrote: post #57

Estimated annual sales of iPhones in EU are about 12.4M phones in Q4 2023. If you just do quick math, that is 49.6M phones/year. If you pick an ASP of $800 (??) then that would be about $39.7B annual Gross sales. If EU actually tried to get that money, Apple would have to just halt all sales of iPhones in EU. Now, maybe that's what the EU really wants. Are there some bitter former Nokia execs on the EU panel?????

This conflict is with EU regulators. But fines are set as a % of worldwide (not just EU) turnover. It's in the headline...

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#63

Post by Alifatisk »

kutenai wrote: post #53
Alifatisk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really provide statistics from perplexity.ai? An LLM?

I did. Perplexity updates daily. Better than "googling" these days. At least I attributed it. Don't like the stats, find better ones, or contradicting ones.

I am not against the statistics, it's well known that the Android ecosystem has more malware than iOS. I was more faschinated by you using LLM as source. I hope I didn't sound condescending, I was asking out of curiosity.

The way you attributed it wasn't properly done though, it's like me saying "According to Google, Android has X times more malware...".

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#64

Post by lxgr »

jacobsimon wrote: post #33
iSnow wrote: post #11

Don't understand Apple here. This was a clear cut case of malicious compliance, what did they expect? That they just get away with it? Of course the EU would see the provocation and will take the opportunity. Yes, they might gain a couple years till this is settled, but they can't use the time to crush a competing app store in between, as there is currently none. I am sure I am dumb, but IMO the smart move would have…

This might sound like a dumb question - but why do lawmakers write such roundabout legislation in the first place? They could have passed a law that says “In the EU, app stores including Apple’s App Store on iOS will not be allowed to charge a fee greater than x% on developers.” And the whole thing would be solved. We can argue about what X should be, but then we wouldn’t have to jump through all these hoops.

Because that's not nearly their own objection against Apple and other platform companies targeted by the DMA.

For example, Meta is targeted by the same law on WhatsApp messaging interoperability; Apple on their exclusive use of the contactless interface for card payments etc.

It's a much more generic and wide-reaching regulatory tool than just an "anti-app-store law".

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#65

Post by gambiting »

kutenai wrote: post #41

[flagged]

>> I do NOT wnat any 3rd party apps stores.

Then don't install one? I literally don't get this argument.

>>So, EU, back off on your pushing for a 3rd party app store.

....why? Because of something you don't want?

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#66

Post by _ph_ »

jacobsimon wrote: post #33
iSnow wrote: post #11

Don't understand Apple here. This was a clear cut case of malicious compliance, what did they expect? That they just get away with it? Of course the EU would see the provocation and will take the opportunity. Yes, they might gain a couple years till this is settled, but they can't use the time to crush a competing app store in between, as there is currently none. I am sure I am dumb, but IMO the smart move would have…

This might sound like a dumb question - but why do lawmakers write such roundabout legislation in the first place? They could have passed a law that says “In the EU, app stores including Apple’s App Store on iOS will not be allowed to charge a fee greater than x% on developers.” And the whole thing would be solved. We can argue about what X should be, but then we wouldn’t have to jump through all these hoops.

Because the problem is more complex. It is not only about the fees - obviously some large companies have that in their focus - but about general user freedom. Like being able to use a web browser of your choice. Or, in general, not have Apple reject some software from their App Store for reasons which are not tied to clear security violations.

It is possible to deliver free apps through the App Store without any download limits. But with competing App Stores it isn't.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#67

Post by _ph_ »

kutenai wrote: post #57

Estimated annual sales of iPhones in EU are about 12.4M phones in Q4 2023. If you just do quick math, that is 49.6M phones/year. If you pick an ASP of $800 (??) then that would be about $39.7B annual Gross sales. If EU actually tried to get that money, Apple would have to just halt all sales of iPhones in EU. Now, maybe that's what the EU really wants. Are there some bitter former Nokia execs on the EU panel?????

If Apple halts their iPhone sales in the EU, they endanger their platform globally. Because suddenly a pretty large and important market would go 100% to Android. Also, Macs would become extinct pretty quickly in the EU.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#68

Post by gambiting »

FredPret wrote: post #58
gambiting wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Furthermore, this is clearly part of a larger pattern of targeting big US tech companies. Because big US tech companies are playing fast and lose with the consumer rights and privacy of our data that we as Europeans have come to expect. If a German or French company was breaking the rules in that way I would also expect them to be treated the exact same way and fined into oblivion. >>This isn't endearing the EU to…

This is completely fair - you have to play by the local rules to be in that economy. But my point is that if those rules become really onerous, then people might calculate that it's better to not play. The best thing is to be the one who invents a new industry, but from over here it seems the big focus over there is not innovation, but regulation. I'm not saying the European economy would ever collapse, I'm saying it…

>> It's good now, but could have been wonderful.

The economy? Sure. The economy really isn't all that societies are about, but I'm sure even you'd agree with that statement - like for example, if someone said that installing permanent unremovable surveilance inside your house and sharing its data publicly would grow your economy by 20%, would you agree to that? Surely it would be wonderful.

There's a line that everyone draws - some countries draw it elsewhere than others, but there is a line.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#69

Post by kutenai »

RetroTechie wrote: post #62
kutenai wrote: post #57

Estimated annual sales of iPhones in EU are about 12.4M phones in Q4 2023. If you just do quick math, that is 49.6M phones/year. If you pick an ASP of $800 (??) then that would be about $39.7B annual Gross sales. If EU actually tried to get that money, Apple would have to just halt all sales of iPhones in EU. Now, maybe that's what the EU really wants. Are there some bitter former Nokia execs on the EU panel?????

This conflict is with EU regulators. But fines are set as a % of worldwide (not just EU) turnover. It's in the headline...

I did read that, and I think it is OUTRAGEOUS. I'd call it criminal, but these thugs in the EU have no moral character.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#70

Post by kutenai »

_ph_ wrote: post #67
kutenai wrote: post #57

Estimated annual sales of iPhones in EU are about 12.4M phones in Q4 2023. If you just do quick math, that is 49.6M phones/year. If you pick an ASP of $800 (??) then that would be about $39.7B annual Gross sales. If EU actually tried to get that money, Apple would have to just halt all sales of iPhones in EU. Now, maybe that's what the EU really wants. Are there some bitter former Nokia execs on the EU panel?????

If Apple halts their iPhone sales in the EU, they endanger their platform globally. Because suddenly a pretty large and important market would go 100% to Android. Also, Macs would become extinct pretty quickly in the EU.

I agree, but I'm just pointing out that this fine is outrageous, and, basically almost equal to total sales in the EU.
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