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"She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

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Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#61

Post by dhosek »

the-chitmonger wrote: post #48
dhosek wrote: post #47

There’s a part of me that kind of wonders whether the Jewish Kashrut laws are meant to protect the most intelligent animals: the best-known laws (cloven feet, does not chew the cud, that which swims in the sea but does not have scales) end up protecting pigs, cetaceans and cephalapods (plus other stuff that’s not so bright, but put that aside). There’s no rational reason to believe this, of course, but it’s still fun…

That man may not have the respect of any academic community but damn it if he isn't entertaining to watch. On a more on-topic note, our growing understanding of animal intelligence has definitely made it harder for me to justify eating certain kinds of meat. My day-to-day is a bit too stressful to make the switch entirely to vegetarianism, but once my financial and personal situations have settled I'm looking forward…

I don’t eat cephalopods because of their intelligence. I would do the same with pigs, but the problem is that they’re so delicious.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#62

Post by short_sells_poo »

sweetheart wrote: post #41
short_sells_poo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there bad actors in farming even in Switzerland? Sure. But the majority of the farms I've been to have treated their animals with respect and kindness. The cows actually spend most of their time out on the pastures grazing freely. They are only taken indoors when the weather gets too cold for them in winter. It's very far from what people picture when talking about industrial farming in the US. It is true that th…

Treating an animal well sometimes does not mean that the animal was treated well. It's nice that the cows you're talking about are given lots of access to pastures, but that doesn't mean that anything else can be done to the animal without it qualifying as disrespectful or unkind. I can't think of another situation in which one could choose to kill an animal for pleasure at 10% it's lifespan, and think that this was…

Animals receive and give very little mercy or kindness in nature. In fact, nature is capable of stunning brutality - eg newly "crowned" male lions kill off the cubs of the old male.

Humans have a capacity of reasoning about their actions, which places a certain responsibility on us to do better than nature. But where do you draw the line?

Ultimately we shouldn't eat animals at all - we should eat lab grown meat. But lab grown meat is still far away. So what do we do in the mean time? Ban all meat consumption? Is that even realistic?

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#63

Post by foxyv »

the-chitmonger wrote: post #48
dhosek wrote: post #47

There’s a part of me that kind of wonders whether the Jewish Kashrut laws are meant to protect the most intelligent animals: the best-known laws (cloven feet, does not chew the cud, that which swims in the sea but does not have scales) end up protecting pigs, cetaceans and cephalapods (plus other stuff that’s not so bright, but put that aside). There’s no rational reason to believe this, of course, but it’s still fun…

That man may not have the respect of any academic community but damn it if he isn't entertaining to watch. On a more on-topic note, our growing understanding of animal intelligence has definitely made it harder for me to justify eating certain kinds of meat. My day-to-day is a bit too stressful to make the switch entirely to vegetarianism, but once my financial and personal situations have settled I'm looking forward…

As a person who made the switch after realizing how intelligent these animals are, I can honestly say that it's worth it if you do decide to. However, I also understand why you would continue to eat meat. It was probably one of the harder things I've done in my life.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#64

Post by sweetheart »

blendergeek wrote: post #42
sweetheart wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating an animal well sometimes does not mean that the animal was treated well. It's nice that the cows you're talking about are given lots of access to pastures, but that doesn't mean that anything else can be done to the animal without it qualifying as disrespectful or unkind. I can't think of another situation in which one could choose to kill an animal for pleasure at 10% it's lifespan, and think that this was…

When a lion kills a gazelle on the savannah, is that "kind and respectful"? No, it's just part of the "circle of life". Humans also interact with their environment and eat non human life forms (plants, cows, etc). If we prove that trees have consciousness, will we need to stop killing them as well? Where does it end?

The morality of our actions isn’t determined by what lions do.

As for the tree hypothetical, why don’t we cross that bridge when we get there.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#65

Post by yvan-eht-nioj »

dhosek wrote: post #47

There’s a part of me that kind of wonders whether the Jewish Kashrut laws are meant to protect the most intelligent animals: the best-known laws (cloven feet, does not chew the cud, that which swims in the sea but does not have scales) end up protecting pigs, cetaceans and cephalapods (plus other stuff that’s not so bright, but put that aside). There’s no rational reason to believe this, of course, but it’s still fun…

I’ve often wondered similarly about Islamic codes which prohibit the eating of sentient pigs and dogs; perhaps the ancients knew that calling them “dirty” was the only practical way to protect them from the mouths of the masses.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#66

Post by bheadmaster »

Voultapher wrote: post #46
bheadmaster wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you start treating farm animals as humans, where do you draw the line? Is growing vegetables also inhumane, since we're controlling every aspect of those plants' lives? Is doing pest control in your own house a mass murder, because you're killing a colony of cockroaches or termites? Is washing your hands a genocide, because you're killing millions bacteria and tiny parasites on your hands? That kind of extremist e…

Respectfully, every comparison you made seems like a false equivalence to me. I'd argue extrapolating from the human perspective to a cow is much closer than to a cockroach. Personally I draw the line at "complex" emotions, somewhere between insects and fish. Yes, that line is arbitrary and I can't prove it. But so is drawing the line at, humans and nothing else that isn't cute. You can't prove the validity of that l…

The point of my comment is to point out the absurdity of the equivalences drawn in the grandparent:

> Imagine your children being born into one of these farms.

> You might argue non human animals are different, but why does that matter? Black and white people are different, why would that difference justify enslaving one group?

I don't claim to know where the exact line is, but thankfully, I don't have to, because the world doesn't run on ethical guidelines, it runs on power struggle. Grandparent was quick to draw the analogy to black slavery - I'd like to point out that black slaves were powerful enough to fight for their own freedom. Cows and chickens aren't. We're gonna eat them because that's just how the world works.

Of course, if someone very powerful becomes obsessed with animal rights, and uses political power to ban meat, I guess we'll stop eating them. I'd be very sad if that happens, but again, that's just how the world works.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#67

Post by zilti »

telesilla wrote: post #31
zilti wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of farms where animals are treated well and with dignity. At least over here in Switzerland. Source: worked at one, and saw a lot of them (my father worked as a vet).

Yes, I've also visited and lived on such farms. They are for small specialist production, I wouldn't say commercial. Great that you know more of them: it proves we can treat animals very well and still have (albeit at low quantity) meat production.

It isn't "small specialist". It's the norm in Switzerland, because the law demands it.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#68

Post by sweetheart »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #62
sweetheart wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating an animal well sometimes does not mean that the animal was treated well. It's nice that the cows you're talking about are given lots of access to pastures, but that doesn't mean that anything else can be done to the animal without it qualifying as disrespectful or unkind. I can't think of another situation in which one could choose to kill an animal for pleasure at 10% it's lifespan, and think that this was…

Animals receive and give very little mercy or kindness in nature. In fact, nature is capable of stunning brutality - eg newly "crowned" male lions kill off the cubs of the old male. Humans have a capacity of reasoning about their actions, which places a certain responsibility on us to do better than nature. But where do you draw the line? Ultimately we shouldn't eat animals at all - we should eat lab grown meat. But…

> So what do we do in the mean time?

Those with access to all the makings for a healthy plant-based diet should stop paying for animal products. It's that simple.

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#69

Post by [deleted] »

card_zero wrote: post #30
PeterisP wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems quite plausible that "boredom" is a mechanism that is required (or at least useful) for building high cognitive capabilities.

I don't exactly believe in it. I think one can only be bored by external forces, or some irrationality.

[deleted]

Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play

#70

Post by dhosek »

foxyv wrote: post #63
the-chitmonger wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That man may not have the respect of any academic community but damn it if he isn't entertaining to watch. On a more on-topic note, our growing understanding of animal intelligence has definitely made it harder for me to justify eating certain kinds of meat. My day-to-day is a bit too stressful to make the switch entirely to vegetarianism, but once my financial and personal situations have settled I'm looking forward…

As a person who made the switch after realizing how intelligent these animals are, I can honestly say that it's worth it if you do decide to. However, I also understand why you would continue to eat meat. It was probably one of the harder things I've done in my life.

I would totally be a vegetarian if it weren’t for the whole not eating meat part. Everything else about it strongly appeals to me.
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